Recent co-op court case

[PhilB]

Most FRS are following CFOA guidance, IRMP Guidance Note 4 and the National Framework document and they talk about fire safety audits not fire safety inspections.

Those of you carrying out the audits will hopefully recognise that there is a big difference between an audit and an inspection.

What many FRS are failing to do, in my opinion, is to effectively inspect premises from time to time.

If the Order is going to maintain and improve on existing fire safety standards once in a while the enforcers should forget audits and just go out in their patches and inspect.

Don't give weeks of notice because if you do you will never see premises as they really operate.

FRS only have one duty imposed under the Order, and that is to enforce the Order...if they do not inspect premises they are failing in that duty.

Yes I know CFOA and most senior fire safety officers will not agree with me...but unless FRS fulfill their statutory duty to enforce the Order,  further lives will be lost and enforcement will be transferred to other agencies.

[Jim Creak]

I agree entirely, look what happened when the BBC went out and inspected Hotels in the West Country without warning. I am lead to believe from one Hotel owner that as a result of the  television program and the recent events in Newquay that the two Authorities are now following your very advice as far as Hotels are concerned.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Doesn't this sort of situation indicate a need for more staff, more pro-active involvement and the need for emphasis upon workplaces and public premises where large numbers of persons resort?

I agree that FRA should be proactive and I certainly place an emphasis on premises where large numbers of people resort. However, most brigades and mine particularly place a greater emphasis on fire safety in the home.

4 years ago my brigade had in the region of 25 inspecting officers now we probably have about 12 officers who specialise in technical fire safety the others are testing electric blankets, carrying out home fire risk visits, giving out deep fat fryers etc etc. Rightly or wrongly this is the modern fire service.

Why are we doing this? Because the Government has set targets of reducing accidental fire deaths in domestic premises. The pool of resources is only so big.

[Ken Taylor]

I'm a home safety enthusiast too, Dave. It's the size of your 'pool' that seems to be the problem.

There aren't enough HSE inspectors these days either - but plenty of Government targets and forms to complete.

Giving out deep fat fryers sounds interesting - can you ellaborate on this? I wonder how this sits with the Government's targets on obesity?

[nearlythere]

In that case the Government need to fund more Inspectors for all the enforcing authorities.  The sheer number of premises that would require a visit on a daily basis would make this an impossibility.  Do not forget that the RR(FS)O is about premises, this is not a builidng, it could be 30 premises within one premises.  With on average an inspection and the resultant paperwork taking the best part of a day for each premises, this one premises could take 1 FSO 6 weeks to complete.  The CFOA Audit form is 13 pages long and has to be completed on each and every occasion.  Thankfully I do not have to do it but know many others that do and it is a complicated process.

Could it be something like the MOT system? A new car will get to the stage were bits wear and is not maintained by the owner to ensure it is safe to take on the road. A RA is to ensure that a premises is safe to let people in to.
The annual MOT system is self financing. Could you do the same to businesses?
I suppose the MOT is like a RA really except it is a lot more obvious to the enforcement authorities when the former is not done.

[Chris Houston]

Nice idea.  Why not only charge the ones who fail.  Then no one can complain.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Giving out deep fat fryers sounds interesting - can you ellaborate on this? I wonder how this sits with the Government's targets on obesity?

Locally we had particular problem with fire starting in kitchens, it was further identified that the most severe of these involved ‘traditional’ chip pans. They were also occuring in properties occupied by vulnerable groups and particularly by elderly persons.

We were able to raise sufficient funds through local partnerships to replace chip pans with deep fat fryers in premises that are identified as being at risk.

How many of these appliances have ended up on eBay or the local car boot is anyone’s guess.

As for the obesity targets, eating chips is a lifestyle choice (thats what they tell me anyway)

[Ken Taylor]

Thanks, Dave. Things have obviously moved on since I was buying smoke alarms wholesale and passing them on to the public.

Glad to know that we are still allowed choices. (Must admit to having chips out with lunch today - and hoping for same with fish tomorrow - but only use 'oven chips' when at home).

[nearlythere]

Giving out deep fat fryers sounds interesting - can you ellaborate on this? I wonder how this sits with the Government's targets on obesity?

Locally we had particular problem with fire starting in kitchens, it was further identified that the most severe of these involved ‘traditional’ chip pans. They were also occuring in properties occupied by vulnerable groups and particularly by elderly persons.

We were able to raise sufficient funds through local partnerships to replace chip pans with deep fat fryers in premises that are identified as being at risk.

How many of these appliances have ended up on eBay or the local car boot is anyone’s guess.

As for the obesity targets, eating chips is a lifestyle choice (thats what they tell me anyway)

Are traditional chip pans a lifestyle choice also?
Are we to eventually nanny some people to the extent that we end up going in to their homes and cooking for them?
As for Fire Safety in the Home, there are none so deaf as those who won't listen.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Are traditional chip pans a lifestyle choice also?
Are we to eventually nanny some people to the extent that we end up going in to their homes and cooking for them?
As for Fire Safety in the Home, there are none so deaf as those who won't listen.

Presumably yes chip pans are a lifestyle choice.

One example of this initiative working is an old man in a local sheltered housing scheme. He had set the alarms off in the scheme 4 times in a month, thus 4 calls to the fire service disruption to residents, impact on fire cover etc etc.  Now 35 pounds on a deep fat fryer has reduced the risk to him and the impact on the other residents and the calls to the fire service.