PCSO's defended over drowning!

[Andy Cole]

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/19757/Call-to-scrap-PCSOs-after-drowning

Any thoughts?

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

Why should they jump into the water?

They are not trained and recognised the risks. Fair play I'd say.

[Kaiser]

I agree totally with the fact that they shouldn't have gone in the water.  Water is one of the most underestimated dangers faced by all of us.  If there was something in the water which had held the kid under water and killed him, it could have done exactly the same to them.  According to the report, the kid was under water for some time before they got there, what are they supposed to do, swim under the whole lake looking for the kid.  Who knows if the PCSO's were confident swimmers at all.  I think it is a case of looking for someone else to blame for the death of a child because it would never be the parents fault for letting him play there would it ?

[pugh]

From reports I have read, Jordan, the boy who drowned, had been in the unselfish and brave act of rescuing his sister, holding her head above water at the expense of his own life.  Scant attention to this act has been given and I would like to see this redressed and Jordan's bravery fully acknowledged.

The first persons on the scene were anglers who pulled the girl from the water only to see Jordan disappear.  It was then, I understand, that the emergency call was made.  The PCSO's arrived on a 'static' scene some minutes later.  Jordan had been underwater for some time and his whereabouts were unknown.  There can be no criticism of the PCSO's for their apparent inaction in this event.  Had this been a 'dynamic' incident, with a victim still struggling in the water then, yes, they MUST be able to render lifesaving assistance.  Regrettably, this is not part of their training and is an issue that needs to be addressed along with a whole host of other issues vis-a-vis PCSO's replacing trained police officers.

My sympathies are with Jordan's family who are having to re-live the anguish of his tragic loss through the misplaced and ill judged 'knee-jerking' of the media to the actions of the PCSO's who responded.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

I totally agree with some of the comments here.

The press are making out that there was no action taken by the PCSO's and it cost the lads life ........ their action was to risk assess the situation and decide not to enter the water.

[Midland Retty]

Yes media hyped again.

Jordan's Mother was angered by the alledged non action by the PCSOs - but she is grieving and Im sure in time will understand there was nothing they could do

Im sure if Jordan was still visible they would have gone in to assist / rescue him, but as youve all rightly said water can be extremely dangerous and it could have meant three deaths if the PCSOs went underwater to search for him .

[Pip]

Some brigades may have even disciplined them if they had entered the water in similar circumstances.Fortunately Fire services are now providing the training and equipment-due to the deaths of untrained/unequiped 'rescuers'.I feel sorry for all involved,but the press are using it as a political football.As i read a comment on teletext earlier-it seems its ok to abandon three young children home alone,I havn't noticed the press vilifying those responsible.Also-why was a parent allowing their 8 year old child to wander around such a dangerous area anyway?

[nearlythere]

Very difficult one this. I'm sure that the PCSOs didn't do nothing. If they could not see the lad then there was no point in jumping in just for the sake of making it look good for the media. Many people have lost their lives trying to rescue those who have already lost theirs.
I think the issue here is that we have PCSOs and not fully trained police officers. I get the feeling that some people are using this as a means of beating the PCSOs.

[Wiz]

Whilst in no way criticising anyone involved in this terrible situation, I would say that the newspaper that I read reported that when a Police Sergeant turned up, he took off his body armour, waded in and recovered the body. What special powers /  training allowed him to locate the boy when he had disappeared from view and no-one else knew where he was?

[Chris Houston]

Some brigades may have even disciplined them

Are you sure? I thought Police Community Support Officers worked for the police and would be outside the scope of any disciplinary scope of a brigade........

[Chris Houston]

What special powers /  training allowed him to locate the boy when he had disappeared from view and no-one else knew where he was?

It is harsh to criticise or imply failings when we are not furnioshed with the facts.  Perhaps the police sergeant had some extra training, perhaps he knew how to swim, perhaps the body had floated to the surface.

[Chris Houston]

Very difficult one this. I'm sure that the PCSOs didn't do nothing. If they could not see the lad then there was no point in jumping in just for the sake of making it look good for the media. Many people have lost their lives trying to rescue those who have already lost theirs.
I think the issue here is that we have PCSOs and not fully trained police officers. I get the feeling that some people are using this as a means of beating the PCSOs.

Indeed the victim here did just that, loose his life trying (and succeeding) to save others.  As a Red Cross ambulance worker, we are forbidden to enter water to save someone as we then put ourselves in danger and those who are tasked with rescuing us in danger.  Rescuers are far more help to those in water when they stay outside the water and try to get them out.  That said, as an abled bodied swimmer, I may find it impossible to follow our protocol if I saw a child in the water, but I would feel very unhappy to be judged by others who didn't have access to all the facts.

[Pip]

Some brigades may have even disciplined them

Are you sure? I thought Police Community Support Officers worked for the police and would be outside the scope of any disciplinary scope of a brigade........

sorry,should have expanded more-what I meant was that if it had been a FF,then they could have faced discipline action by the fire brigade.And the PCSO's having been told not to attempt a rescue,could have been breaching their own proceedures and the HASAW Act .Its a tough call-if it goes well you are a hero,if it doesn't you could lose your job/life.

[Pip]

Whilst in no way criticising anyone involved in this terrible situation, I would say that the newspaper that I read reported that when a Police Sergeant turned up, he took off his body armour, waded in and recovered the body. What special powers /  training allowed him to locate the boy when he had disappeared from view and no-one else knew where he was?

none-he was fortunate-who would have saved him if he had got into trouble.

[kurnal]

Pip
I thought it was still allowed to be a little grey area, subject to a dynamic risk assessment at the time and taking into account the circumstances as you find them- ie its ok to take some risk to save a life that can be saved.
Its never acceptable to place an employee in danger to rescue a deceased person.
Firefighters are special people because they are most likely of all the services to get the balance of the judgement right to be inventive and not always stick rigidly to approved safe working procedures when there is a chance that a life may be saved.   And usually get away with it.