Phe

[Pete M]

Can anone tell me why PHE is frowned upon in all circumstances other than hospitals?

Not a trick question - just looking to poll opinions.

[Clive]

What about care and nursing homes ?

The principle is based upon having a trained and disciplined staff, with an occupancy that generally can be controlled and moved as required by those staff, in a managed way.  

Not many other premises in todays society have this.

[CivvyFSO]

PHE is generally used because of difficulties in moving infirm/vulnerable patients. i.e. People who would possibly be put at more danger by being outside.

I think it is a bit like stay-put (Or delayed evacuation, as the guides like to call it), more of a last resort due to other difficulties/impossiblities, and the building has to be of the right standard to allow it. (And not just used because you don't have enough staff and don't want to address any difficulties properly)

At the end of the day it is down to risk assessment and we should look at each case on it's own merits. i.e. You might have a school or some premises for seriously handicapped/disabled people. If the building can support PHE, then it may be a viable option, with a good reason for implementing it.

[Dragonmaster]

We usually accept PHE in our res care premises, which includes an assessment of the vulnerability of the residents out in the snow on a cold January morning. The registration bodies require them to have 'last ditch' alternate accommodation for emergencies, but these are usually other res care premises, and the impact on them makes their use undesireable unless no other option exists.

I have also agreed PHE in a new community school for the part that looks after the special needs children. Admittedly the staff/pupil ratio is no worse than 1 to 2, but I did need evidence of the 'robust management procedures' (what would we do without them) before i accepted the PHE.

Civvy is right, there are a number of establishments who's night staff levels would put a strain on any type of  evacuation.

[wee brian]

You can use it in other buildings but its not usually economic

[Mark Riley]

We were called in recently to rectify a situation that had been designed by the world’s largest fire engineers that relied on PHE for disabled evacuation. This works well in theory but in this example it meant that whilst most people could turn their back on a fire to escape persons requiring assistance had to travel up to 30m towards the fire before reaching relative safety.

BMR Associates

Any problems or replies then ring us for advice.

[Redone]

Visited two hotels with disabled accomodation on the upper floors last week that still leave people in the stairwell for the fire service, sort of PHE, both said the fire service were happy with that arrangement...

[Mark Riley]

we know of premises that during the fire strike would not let disabled in because there was no one available to get them out. there is no guidance anywhere that say it is the job of the fire srevice to evacuate disabled persons so i am surprised if they have said it is ok. also they are not doing the responsible person any favours as it will be him in court not them when things go wrong.

[kurnal]

Yes redone this is still unfortunately widespread. Some local officers are not yet up to speed. Trouble is the clients listen to guys in the red trucks rather than the consultant.

Following a risk assessment in a public assembly building I drew up an emergency evacuation plan for them with refuges and identifying the need for trained staff to assist persons in the refuge. Local fire officer said thats rubbish - leave the wheelchair users in the refuges till the fire service arrive. We will deal with them. I made a phone call to the brigade on that one and received an apology.

Tried to persuade another client to install dry risers in an historic 6 storey Mill in the North West. All going well till local station were invited for familiarisation and operational planning visit.  No need for risers they say- they have never had them in 100 years so no need to install now. I have asked client to request a visit by a higher ranking fire safety officer who may have an inkling about what operational pre planning is all about.

Bmr- the RRO  guidance is very clear that it is the duty of the Responsible person to make an effective plan for the evacuation of ALL relevant persons.

[Mark Riley]

kurnal
that was my point, the fire service are not doing the RP any favours

[William 29]

I agree with what has been put forward so far.  In reality if the officer in charge turns up at any premises and the RP informs him/her that there are persons still in the premises they will do their best to get them out.  However, you can not have a written fire emergency plan that states that you will move disabled persons into a refuge (with or without a “buddy”) and leave them there until the fire and rescue service arrive.

I have seen such procedures and also that the RP has said the fire service are ok with it?  There is a lot of guidance which states that this is not the case.  BS 5588 Part 8 Code of Practice for Means of Escape for Disabled Persons has been with us since 1999, also BS 5588 Part 12 – Managing Fire Safety.  More recently we have a supplementary guide to the HM Government guides “Means of Escape for Disabled People” which I guess spells it out:

Section 1.1 Legal overview

“The Fire and Rescue Service’s role in fire evacuation is that of ensuring that
the means of escape in case of fire and associated fire safety measures
provided for all people who may be in a building are both adequate and
reasonable, taking into account the circumstances of each particular case.
Under current fire safety legislation it is the responsibility of the person(s)
having responsibility for the building to provide a fire safety risk assessment
that includes an emergency evacuation plan for all people likely to be in the
premises, including disabled people, and how that plan will be implemented.
Such an evacuation plan should not rely upon the intervention of the Fire
and Rescue Service to make it work”

One more very important point to throw in.  I see many PHE plans in res. care homes etc where they are operating such a policy.  However, many do not have intumescing strips or smoke seals fitted to the separating compartments i.e. bedroom doors, cross corridor doors, doors onto escape routes etc. and the fire and rescue service have visited and agreed a PHE strategy, maybe because this is how its always been?  In my view the PHE plan then falls down as it should be based on moving occupants horizontally, or vertically away from the greatest point of danger to the nearest safe compartment where smoke spread will be checked.  Any thoughts...............

[Chris Houston]

I think people often forget that the fire service may be on strike at the time of their fire, or might be attending another fire, or delayed for a number of reasons.

[Martin]

Our local F Station will attend, evacuate from the refuge, and then send an officer round to issue an improvement notice requiring us to set up a means of evacuation. They are not seeking out RPs with no plans to clear refuges without brigade assistance.This near enough verbatim the phone conversation we had.

The next problem is in our Personal Emergency Evacuation Plan for the non -mbulatory do we go for "Evac Chairs". The "Disabled Lobby " don't seem to like them. There is a training problem. Transferring from an existing chair to an evac. chair is but one problem.

 But is there a better option?

[jokar]

Dynamic Risk Assessment for operational officers is about saveable life and saveable property. Therefore, no one should assume, and quite rightly it is the RP's job to sort out evacuation of all relevant people, that the FRS will go in to get people.  The DRC after the last industrial action wrote an article with regard to this telling RP's that it is there reponsibility.

[Redone]

Our local F Station will attend, evacuate from the refuge, and then send an officer round to issue an improvement notice requiring us to set up a means of evacuation. They are not seeking out RPs with no plans to clear refuges without brigade assistance.This near enough verbatim the phone conversation we had.

The next problem is in our Personal Emergency Evacuation Plan for the non -mbulatory do we go for "Evac Chairs". The "Disabled Lobby " don't seem to like them. There is a training problem. Transferring from an existing chair to an evac. chair is but one problem.

 But is there a better option?

A few options Martin, limit to ground floor only, Albac mats, evac lifts, adequate staffing levels - whatever that number is, sprinklers - reduce the need for speedy evac?  

Or society should just accept fires will happen, people will die, if you what more staff, it costs, we'd rather pay less and hope when it happens, it happens to someone else.  We're all wise after the event, never been to a care home fire where the staff didn't give it their best shot, I feel managers today, especially in local authorities have no idea of the impact of current fire legislation on their procedures...