Fire Exit Doors In Supermarket

[porter2007]

Hi There,
I'm After Fitting 180 Degree Plastic Swing Doors To A Twin Opening Fire Door To Stop The Cold Wind Blowing In And To Stop Rodants As The Main Fire Doors Are Open 70% Of The Time. At The Moment The Doors Are Push Bar Fire Doors But If I Fit The Plastic Swing Doors Then This Will Obstruct The Push Bar. Is This Allowed. If Not Would Anybody Have Any Suggestions?

Cheers

[Chris Houston]

I don't understand your post.

Fire exits are the doors we use to leave the building in the event of a fire.  Fire doors are ones that are used to restrict the passage of fire, smoke and gasses.

I think you are talking about fire exits, not fire doors.

But when you say obstruct, do you mean that people cannot see the push bar or cannot use it?

What is a "180 Degree Plastic Swing Doors"?

Why don't you just keep the fire exit closed?

Confused Chris.

[monkeh]

I don't understand your post.

Fire exits are the doors we use to leave the building in the event of a fire.  Fire doors are ones that are used to restrict the passage of fire, smoke and gasses.

I think you are talking about fire exits, not fire doors.

But when you say obstruct, do you mean that people cannot see the push bar or cannot use it?

What is a "180 Degree Plastic Swing Doors"?

Why don't you just keep the fire exit closed?

Confused Chris.

i think he means the big flappy plastic doors you see in supermarkets and hospitals in staff areas.

just  two big plastic doors that overlap and push open from either side. i'd imagine they wouldn't obstruct vision, but it might prevent the bar being used unless the doors are pulled open (quite difficult since there's no handles as you're meant to push them)

[slubberdegullion]

Do the doors lead from the retail space to the outside?  Or do they lead from the retail space to the stockroom?  Or, indeed, from the stockroom to the outside?

It makes a difference as the doors may be required as fire doors if they are between the retail space and the stockroom.

The door is obviously required for means of escape as it has a push bar fitted.

I don't think there's going to be an easy answer to this because it would be highly unlikely to be acceptable to have these plastic doors obstructing the push bar (and the door opening itself).

I'll tell you what I've seen work once or twice, but you'd have to be very careful about how you arranged it and talk to your fire risk assessor (might even get advice from the local fire service, depending on where you live).  If you fit swing free devices to the doors the wrong way round, they can be used to power open (inwards) the plastic doors on actuation of the alarm (normally they're arranged to close doors when the alarm goes off).  

If done correctly, people would then have free access to the push bar and to the door opening without having to negotiate past the plastic doors.

If you want to know more about swing free devices, just ask.  

If anyone else has got a view on this I'd be interested.

Stu

[nearlythere]

Do the doors lead from the retail space to the outside?  Or do they lead from the retail space to the stockroom?  Or, indeed, from the stockroom to the outside?

It makes a difference as the doors may be required as fire doors if they are between the retail space and the stockroom.

The door is obviously required for means of escape as it has a push bar fitted.

I don't think there's going to be an easy answer to this because it would be highly unlikely to be acceptable to have these plastic doors obstructing the push bar (and the door opening itself).

I'll tell you what I've seen work once or twice, but you'd have to be very careful about how you arranged it and talk to your fire risk assessor (might even get advice from the local fire service, depending on where you live).  If you fit swing free devices to the doors the wrong way round, they can be used to power open (inwards) the plastic doors on actuation of the alarm (normally they're arranged to close doors when the alarm goes off).  

If done correctly, people would then have free access to the push bar and to the door opening without having to negotiate past the plastic doors.

If you want to know more about swing free devices, just ask.  

If anyone else has got a view on this I'd be interested.

Stu

Would have a view but can't quite understand the issue. Why does one need plastic doors across a panic bolted door?

[kurnal]

As nearlythere says we need to understand the underlying cause of the problem if we are to be of any real help.

Why are the exit doors open so much at the moment and is there anything that could be changed so that the exit doors can do their own job and provide the rhodent/ wind protection you need?

 
Will the plastic doors be set back from the fire exit doors to form a lobby?

Who may need to use the fire exit doors- staff or customers and roughly how many people may need to use that exit?

Is there any reason why you cant change the way you use the fire exit doors so that they dont need to be open all the time- for example make them double swing with centreing closers  as are commonly found on corridors etc and just fit security bars to them when closed?

[slubberdegullion]

As nearlythere says we need to understand the underlying cause of the problem if we are to be of any real help.

Why are the exit doors open so much at the moment and is there anything that could be changed so that the exit doors can do their own job and provide the rhodent/ wind protection you need?

 
Will the plastic doors be set back from the fire exit doors to form a lobby?

Who may need to use the fire exit doors- staff or customers and roughly how many people may need to use that exit?

Is there any reason why you cant change the way you use the fire exit doors so that they dont need to be open all the time- for example make them double swing with centreing closers  as are commonly found on corridors etc and just fit security bars to them when closed?

Yes, true enough.  We really need something more to go on here......Over to you Porter2007.........

[AnthonyB]

More info definitely required- the plastic door scenario suggests the doors are in a compartment wall between shop floor and storage, yet the panic device suggests a final exit (which then wouldn't need the plastic doors).

Another way around it is do the doors need a panic fastening? The description suggests they are 'back of house' and not a route which either the public or large numbers of staff would use so an alternative simple escape fastening not affected as much by the plastic doors would a panic device.

[monkeh]

my understanding is that the doors are a final exit to the outside, presumably in the stock room, that are open for a considerable amount of time, possibly because the doors are on a shortcut route to a different part of the building, or perhps they just store their palletts/pallett trucks outside and there's a steady strem of traffic through them.

the plastic doors are desireable because although the route has to remain open to passage while transporting goods, the wind/vermin are not wanted.

[porter2007]

Monkeh,

You are exactly right. Sorry for the confusion. I'll try and explain again. I read back what i'd wrote and it made no sense to me either.

The doors are double openning fire escape doors leading out to a loading bay area. The room adjoining the doors is used as an online shopping area by staff only. They uses these doors to trolly the goods out to the vans to load them with product. Hence the need to have the doors open a large part of the day. The problem with this is that they get both rodant issues and also with the doors open it creates a wind tunnel effect which creates a cold area for the staff to work in. I thought about using the plastic strips but they have been unsucessful in the past with rodants. This is why I thought about the idea of the thick plastic swing/impact doors. Obviously the issue with it being is that they obstruct the push bars for the fire exit doors.

I hope that is a little clearer

[slubberdegullion]

Ok - thanks for the extra info but there's still not really enough to be able to come up with the most appropriate solution for the circumstances.

This is probably a bit cheeky but it sounds like you need specific advice in this case and this might be a way to get it.  Write to your local fire authority, fire safety office, informing them that you are going to put up these plastic doors at this exit.  They should be morally, if not legally, obliged to look at your proposal.  If they don't consider it a problem you can carry on.  If they do consider it a problem you'll probably get good advice from them on alternative means to solve your problem.  Not guaranteed, but a good bet.

I apologise to those that object to this suggestion as it might be diverting the fire authority's attention away from their prioritised enforcement of the FSO, but this place has got persons at risk in it and there is a specific problem here that deserves appropriate action.

Stu

[CivvyFSO]

I don't think we concern ourselves with temperature or rodent related problems.

[slubberdegullion]

I don't think we concern ourselves with temperature or rodent related problems.

No.  But we do with push bars that cannot be operated and fire exits obstructed by plastic doors.

[Mike Buckley]

I don't think we concern ourselves with temperature or rodent related problems.

Maybe not, but it may make a difference between being seen as a helpful organisation or an officious idiot.

[kurnal]

Then the answer could be:

If the timber doors are open the plastc doors may be shut. If the timber doors are closed then the plastic doors should be fastened back on hooks.

It doesnt matter if the panic bolts are obstructed if the doors are already open.