Smoke alarms 'v' Operational training

[dinosaw]

fireftrm the elements you identify are quite correct and should be used to there full capacity but are left floundering in the world of IPDS, BARS, Rank to Role, ITOP, ADC's. A balance between community safety and operational preparedness is necessary but sadly lacking in the modern fire service where role maps are only used when it suits.

[fireftrm]

I think it is worth asking a coupe of questions, as I am sure there are many misconceptions at the base of the counter arguments.

1. Where did IPDS come from?
2. When did the roles appear and where from?
3. What are BARS, ADC and ITOPs?

Please answer honestly with your opinions, I am not trying to catch anyone out, but hope that I can show my point as a result of the answers given.

[fireftrm]

So I take it, then, that everyone now sees that the 'new systems' aren't to blame?

I tried to call the bluff of the counter arguers, it seems well and truly called?

[Midland Retty]

Well, someone (senior management) should have the courage to say "no" there are better ways to do this.

You are absolutely correct Chris

Unfortunately no one will do so , its the classic case of high ranking officers not wanting to upset apple cart, for they fear they will either loose brownie points or their promotion prospects or their pensions.

Its a dog eat dog world and the powers that be seem to want management that will say "yes" everytime.

[Big A]

So I take it, then, that everyone now sees that the 'new systems' aren't to blame?

I tried to call the bluff of the counter arguers, it seems well and truly called?

I don't think that the comment that seems to have encouraged you back on to your soapbox was intended as such. Indeed I suspect it had absolutely nothing to do with the firefighters' role map and everything to do with the (ridiculous) targets set by the un-seeing eye of government and which our principal managers seem determined to meet at ALL costs. 7(2)(d)s now seem to come well down the list of priorities.

 (Perhaps you can guess what my favourite soapbox subject is)

[fireftrm]

So, pray tell, where is the evidence that (your example) 7.2.ds were given a reduced priority? Rather than people saying how CS targets and work have meant that ops training and preparedeness is not being done, show where the FRS have actually said don't do this, do that. I go back to my assertion that there is plenty of time for both (look at what I was doing as a Ff yet still training). I also stick by my gut feeling that those who whinge about IPDS, role maps etc don't actually understand what they are, or where they came from. That, to date, no one has tried to answer either rather supports my instinct.

[Redone]

cost management does not seem to be part of the equation.

I know of an appliance crew from Wolverhampton fitting a detector in a property in Solihull, very cost effective!

[Big A]

So, pray tell, where is the evidence that (your example) 7.2.ds were given a reduced priority? Rather than people saying how CS targets and work have meant that ops training and preparedeness is not being done, show where the FRS have actually said don't do this, do that. I go back to my assertion that there is plenty of time for both (look at what I was doing as a Ff yet still training). I also stick by my gut feeling that those who whinge about IPDS, role maps etc don't actually understand what they are, or where they came from. That, to date, no one has tried to answer either rather supports my instinct.

All I can tell you is that there is plenty of evidence that 7(2)(d)s are not being completed in this brigade and that a principal officer  circulated a message (last week) 'banging the drum' about stations not doing enough to ensure that we fit our target of 35,000 smoke detectors this year.

[fireftrm]

So Big A that sounds like a move toward some evidence, but saying 'there is plenty of evidence that 7.2.ds are not being completed' is a little like me saying there is plenty of evidence of lfe in the universe. Surely you would want a bit more, like the evidence itself and not just my word for it?  Justa s the 35,000 smoke detectors you have a target to fit sounds a lot, but if you work for LFB I suggest it is a tiny target of 78 per watch, there again if you work for IOW that's a damn lot. Stats only work if they refer to something tangible.

[Big A]

I'm sorry, I really can't be bothered to continue with this, besides I've got to get some more referrals.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Some years ago my brigade set targets for the fitting of smoke alarms and as a Watch Manager I was often asked why we hadn’t reached the required amount for the month. Now if the old lady we visited hadn’t seen anybody that week and wanted to talk we let her, if this was the only occasion that she had to ask a question that may save her life then I didn’t have any problem with that. Quality not quantity. Fortunately my brigade now shares this philosophy.

With regards to 7 (2) (d)s twenty years ago I was told the fire service is 90% preparation - we train for the event that might happen. We know every risk in our patch. This doesn’t happen now. But it is my guess that with the increasing number of deaths of firefighters the HSE might just start looking at the fire service and how we operate. Not being prepared is not acceptable.

[Big A]

But it is my guess that with the increasing number of deaths of firefighters the HSE might just start looking at the fire service and how we operate. Not being prepared is not acceptable.

It already is - see Improvement Notice to Warks FS

[Kaiser]

Justa s the 35,000 smoke detectors you have a target to fit sounds a lot, but if you work for LFB I suggest it is a tiny target of 78 per watch, there again if you work for IOW that's a damn lot. Stats only work if they refer to something tangible.

78 per watch per month is a damn lot if you are doing your job correctly, it's not just a case of door open, alarm gets slapped on ceiling in a slam dunk style and bugger off.  The visits should be a home safety risk assessment, going around the home and giving sound advice and guidance, highlighting not only the problems, but also explaining the reasons why it is a problem and how to resolve the problem.

If all watch work is done correctly, such as daily routines, station duties, standard tests, 7, 2 d's, during use inspections, school visits, drilling, lectures, meal breaks.......................... oh yes, we do still have them.... incidents including fire calls, then this number of smoke alarms is stupidly high regardless of geographical location.  The problem is that so many senior officers see the targets as a competition between themselves and other officers and don't give a crap about standing up to anybody and explaining that the targets are unrealistic for fear of being held back in their career.  If half the officers were held as accountable for the poor training of the firefighters in their responsibilty as they are for the numbers of smoke alarms that get put up, maybe, just maybe, standards would raise back in the right direction.

[fireftrm]

Kaiser, a maths lesson maybe? 78 x 4 x 112 = 34944 (nearest whole number was used to get 78), 78 is per ANNUM!!. So that is 6.5 per MONTH, maybe 3 HFRAs, plenty of time to do them properly!

Your last sentence hits the mark, though. That is a really important point, though I stress that it starts with CMs.

[kurnal]

It all goes to show that counting detectors is a hopeless indicator of the value of the fire prevention work carried out by fire crews and may even be harmful if crews start number chasing for the sake of the targets as they do.

One HRA carried out in a deprived part of lewisham is probably worth 10 in knightsbridge in terms of its contribution to reducing the risk to life from fire. And probably 10 times harder to win.

A better indicator may be the number of persons engaged with combined with the number of hours spent per crew member qualified with deprivation factors, ethnic and age issues and type of housing?