Author Topic: Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?  (Read 17353 times)

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« on: January 16, 2008, 12:08:58 PM »
Recently  done a risk assessment for a caravan site. The client uses a BAFE / ISO9001 accredited company for extinguisher and fire alarm maintenance. Two weeks before my visit they attended site and serviced the 6 extinguishers in three boxes and the battery alarms. Two extinguishers were discharged and recommissioned and the client charged for 6 new alkaline pp3 type batteries in the alarm boxes.

On looking I am absolutely certain that no work was done other than to scribble on the extinguishers and the log book. The client says they were only on site 10 minutes. I took some digital photos of the thick cobwebs around the extinguisher nozzles and inside the extinguisher cabinets and in the alarm boxes that were just caked in thick cobwebs- several years worth I reckon.

I drafted a letter for my client to send to the company enclosing digital photos and asking for their comments. They simply responded that the work charged for was correctly carried out.

My client doesnt want to take it any further and is paying their £270 bill.  Nice work if you can get it. I have obtained some alternative quotes for them which have come in at about quarter of the price charged by the previous company. I have advised the client to get the work done again by another firm.

As the fire risk assessor  am I in a position to do anything further- and should I anyway?

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2008, 12:21:31 PM »
Not an awful lot you can do Kurnal if the site owner does not want to take it further. All you can do is advise him/her that you believe that the service he paid for does not appear to have been carried out. You could contact BAFE and seek their views. If the extinguisher company is accredited to it they may wish to carry out an audit of their service.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

terry martin

  • Guest
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2008, 04:21:39 PM »
you could report them to trading standards, this could be done even if the Company does not want to take action.
 if you have photographic evidence, trading standards would probably be quite interested.
 i do know the hold all complaints on file so they can build up a picture of how a company is trading. they may not act on your complaint initially but it will contribute to a case if there are further complaints.

Offline John Dragon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2008, 05:40:51 PM »
We would charge about £24.00 to carry out basic service on 6 extinguishers (inc service parts such as tamper seals).
2 discharge tests on cartridge operated water extinguishers would cost about £18.00 each inc a new set of seals and a new (not refurbished) cartridge.
New duracell alkaline batteries fitted to cabinet alarms - £3.25 each

Total about £80.00 plus VAT   so yes I think I can smell ripoff.



We are ISO 9001 accredited, but have baulked at becoming BAFE registered due to the costs involved and the seeming lack of getting anything back for your dosh!
Three other local companies are dropping out of BAFE for the same reason (expensive ST104 engineer licensing).

Discuss...........

Offline firesafety

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2008, 06:28:56 PM »
As John says I too think this is a rip off, however, the point I want to make is that BAFE and ISO approval does not mean customers are getting a better job done and will not get ripped off !!!!

I have carried out numerous inspections of buildings where the users have clearly been misled and ripped off by BAFE approved companies the bottom line is generally commission £££ for engineers and targets, not safety and compliance with current legislation !!!

I would be interested in peoples experiences and thoughts on BAFE etc

Offline John Dragon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2008, 08:17:35 PM »
Got an email addy?
Don't want to get into trouble on a public forum.

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2489
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2008, 01:01:53 AM »
Try BAFE and also trading standards who over the years have prosecuted shine & sign merchants. It's unusual (not never) to find a BAFE company missing out certain checks because of the risk of auditing - I normally ind instead they overprice, condemn unnecessarily & over provide instead with non registered non trade body members usually not doing a proper job (there are many that do as well I hasten to add).

First way of detecting shine & sign is gauge dots - lack of gauge verification is the first sign all is not well & it goes downhill from there. A common dodge is not doing an extended service, but marking it on the label & charging, because it's too much effort & time to take the extinguisher out & discharge it, strip it, inspect it & recharge, plus a number of firms don't carry recharge kit.

Cartridge types are often not internally examined, or if they are the cartridge isn't weighed - a dangerous mistake as I do find sealed cartridges that have lost content reasonably often.

Other tricks are cutting corners by not having or using new frangible 'OK' pins in Chubb, Kidde FPS & Ceo Deux headed extinguishers & by putting pull tag seals in them each year instead of changing the whole pin - put a pull seal on an OK pin & seal and the extinguisher then fails to comply with EN3 as the two elements together require too much force to break (true in practice, have done a test on this)- Chubb & Gloria have circulated notes on this, but few firms bother to take any notice.

I could fill pages with tricks of the trade like this, but won't bore you!

When I find this I put it in the FRA (as the equipment isn't competently checked and could thus fail to operate or be in a dangerous condition) & advise termination.

For those who don't hold engineers quals I have a copiously illustrated powerpoint on the key elements of the different types of service etc that I use to train our consultants - not a course to allow you to service but still a good insight, I can forward on request (largish file)
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline AnthonyB

  • Firenet Extinguisher Expert
  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2489
    • http://www.firewizard.co.uk
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2008, 01:07:58 AM »
BAFE are persuading increasing numbers of Local Authorities & insurers to require people to only use accredited companies and are planning to get the revision of BS 5306-3 to unify and nationalise tech training & accreditation (I wonder by whom), so any firm wanting to hit the big time needs BAFE as some of the bigger clients require it. There is enough business that doesn't care however to enable you to do well without shelling out ££££ to BAFE each year though.

I don't go as far as saying 'only use BAFE firms' as that doesn't guarantee the best & doesn't mean others are no good - experience has shown me that advising medium size regional firms who are BAFE or otherwise FETA (FIA), IFEDA or BFC members gives the biggest chance of a fair job
Anthony Buck
Owner & Fire Safety Consultant at Fire Wizard


Extinguisher/Fire History Enthusiast

Fire Extinguisher Facebook Group:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=65...415&ref=ts
http://www.youtube.com/user/contactacb
https://uk.linkedin.com/in/anthony-buck-36

Offline afterburner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2008, 07:25:11 AM »
Anthony's point about recording improper maintenance in the FRA is excellent, and perhaps exposes the responsible person in a failure to appoint competent people to assist in discharging fire safety duties. Once the client is hearing this sort of good news perhaps they may be more willing to take the company to task

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2008, 09:22:30 AM »
Quote from: afterburner
Anthony's point about recording improper maintenance in the FRA is excellent, and perhaps exposes the responsible person in a failure to appoint competent people to assist in discharging fire safety duties. Once the client is hearing this sort of good news perhaps they may be more willing to take the company to task
You would need to be absolutely absolutely absolutely certain that a full and proper service as per the BS was not carried out. You could leave yourself open to be sued for libel and/or slander by the company. The presence of cobwebs may not neccessarily mean a proper service not being carried out. Does the service include cleaning the equipment?
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Tom Sutton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2287
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2008, 09:52:58 AM »
Quote from: AnthonyB
First way of detecting shine & sign is gauge dots - lack of gauge verification is the first sign all is not well & it goes downhill from there.
Maybe a silly question to you but what are gauge dots never heard the term?
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline afterburner

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 488
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2008, 10:53:18 AM »
Nearlythere, the original thread starter from Kurnal said he was absolutely certain no work had been done. So he only needs one more absolutely absolute to take the company to task?

Offline nearlythere

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4351
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2008, 12:48:28 PM »
Quote from: afterburner
Nearlythere, the original thread starter from Kurnal said he was absolutely certain no work had been done. So he only needs one more absolutely absolute to take the company to task?
Well, as long as he is absolutely sure that he is absolutely certain.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline Dragonmaster

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 118
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2008, 04:19:34 PM »
Absolutely old chap
"Never do today what will become someone's else's responsibility tomorrow"

Offline John Dragon

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
Poor service from an accredited company- what should I do?
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2008, 06:24:08 PM »
Gauge dots cover the hole in the centre of the pressure gauge (to stop moisture etc from getting in), they usually (but do not have to) have the year printed on them (Chubb's don't), so you can tell at a glance if the extinguisher has at least had a gauge test carried out.