BS in prisons ?

[Benzerari]

One of our customers is a prison with very old conventional fire alarm systems throughout, after two years servicing it, I realised that there are lots of BS5839 requirements missing, even I do agree that the prisons are exempts from some requirement such as the link to the door release systems which is fairly clear why...
I thought that, it should be compliant to more serious and complicated standards! Above the one stated in BS5839…etc

But why the prisons still exempt from other basic standard's requirements? Such as the call point’s distance in the main corridors, the lack of smoke detectors coverage in so many areas … I do agree it is not easy to imagine if you have not been a subcontractor in one of the prisons.

Any clarifications about the standards and legislations would be appreciated!

Thank you

[kurnal]

You know I once heard someone say it was because  they are government buildings ( Crown Property) and the government makes rules for everyone else to follow and for themselves to ignore? But that would surely be cynical wouldn't it?

There is a guidance note for fire safety in prisons published by the Home office " Fire Safety Standards in Prison Establishments" " Principles of design and construction" 1991 its available on the web I think.

[Peter Wilkinson]

'Fire Safety Design Standard for Custodial Property' is to be published by the Ministry of Justice soon.  Hopefully, somone will tell us when.

[John Webb]

You know I once heard someone say it was because  they are government buildings ( Crown Property) and the government makes rules for everyone else to follow and for themselves to ignore? But that would surely be cynical wouldn't it?

The concept that "Crown Property" is exempt from various rules and regs has been around for many years. It is theoretical in that the property is held in the name of the monarch and therefore it cannot be possible to enforce the said rules because the monarch cannot take themselves to court for a breach of said rules!

Having worked on Crown Property for nearly 28 years, it was also clearly the dead hand of the Treasury who favoured this arrangement as it saved money. Ministry of Public Building and Works (MPBW) and its successor PSA (Property Services Agency) were allowed to say "We'll keep things up to the expected standards" but they and the ministries were never given the full funds to do so. Hence the large MoD warehouse fires - the Treasury were arguing the toss over sprinkler systems etc.

I had hoped that with the RR(FS)O the concept of 'Crown Property' would be dropped......
Mind you, the large chunks of the Civil Service that have been privatised in the last 20 years means that in such privatised places they do have to comply.

[Mr. P]

MoD have additional fire safety standards often above that required by legislation (Crown Fire Standards). Yes, I have worked on crown Property too and know several people currently working in different lines of MoD fire.)).  Prpeties fall into categories - Owned by crown, owned and used solely for purpose of crown and owned by but not used for purpose of crown. On top of this, recent Private Finance Initiative, means builds are done for use of crown, but remain privately owned and rented back to crown. Add to this, sites where visiting forces (i.e. USA) have occupancies, further legislation comes iinto play such NFPA. Where there is a confliction between various legislation, the most onerous requirement is to apply.  Wow! Thats heavy for this time of the morning! Anyone got a friday joke?

[kurnal]

Generally Mr P in your experience would you say there is consistency in fire safety standards across the range you mention?
For example is the standard in premises owned and occupied by the Crown of a simlar standard to those owned by others but occupied by the Crown?

Whilst I can understand the lack of call points in a prison to avoid malicious operation and emergency procedures will reflect this, It is surprising to hear of a lack of detection- unless of course all unprotected areas are staffed 24/7/365? I would have expected at least detection linked to staff alarms?

But clearly a prison will need a very special emergency plan Benzerari and whilst I would expect basic technical compliance with BS5839 I would not be at all surprised at a lack of call points, special arrangements linked to procedures for evacuation, entry and exit control systems falling outside BS5839 and multi stage evacuation procedures including verification of all alarms.

[Ashley Wood]

The rules of the 'crown' no longer apply to the prison service. They are now under the RR(FS)O as every one else. prisons however are unique in many respects. One of the big problems is that the 'residents' have a lot of free time on their hands and as such find ways to cause mischief, one is activating smoke detectors. It causes huge disruption.

The 'Ministry of Justice' (sounds like something judge Dred was involved in) is looking at Carbon Monoxide detectors for cells.

[Benzerari]

Whilst I can understand the lack of call points in a prison to avoid malicious operation and emergency procedures will reflect this, It is surprising to hear of a lack of detection- unless of course all unprotected areas are staffed 24/7/365? I would have expected at least detection linked to staff alarms?

But clearly a prison will need a very special emergency plan Benzerari and whilst I would expect basic technical compliance with BS5839 I would not be at all surprised at a lack of call points, special arrangements linked to procedures for evacuation, entry and exit control systems falling outside BS5839 and multi stage evacuation procedures including verification of all alarms.

I do agree the prison should have a special emergency plan... the manual call points can be operated with a special key and not through a break glass can’t they? just to avoid any false alarms caused by prisoners... if the standards in prisons bypass the need for call points in each 45m that means the staff (officers) are super trained to run faster than any normal person in order to activate the next available call point! In case of emergency... but if they are not present at the time of the incident; the case would be even worse, and any way; officers can not be present every where...

The other strange thing is that the generator rooms, electric rooms... and many sort of rooms; haven't smoke detectors at all, are they then protected by the spirit?

The smoke detectors can be disabled the time of the prisoners circulation and enabled back i.e. at night... just to avoid any false alarms... there is always some sort of solutions to comply to the standards otherwise someone will say don’t worry the fire is so friendly to all Crown Properties and government buildings!

sounds strange really :/

[Dinnertime Dave]

The rules of the 'crown' no longer apply to the prison service. They are now under the RR(FS)O as every one else. prisons however are unique in many respects. One of the big problems is that the 'residents' have a lot of free time on their hands and as such find ways to cause mischief, one is activating smoke detectors. It causes huge disruption.

The 'Ministry of Justice' (sounds like something judge Dred was involved in) is looking at Carbon Monoxide detectors for cells.

It is my understanding that they are still Crown Property, and where possible they comply with the relevant legislation. The exemption is from prosecution 'You can’t take the Crown to court'

Many of the point here are fine, but most prisons are still old Victorian buildings, with old fire warning systems. We have two prisons in our inspecting area one is on a two minute delay for investigating manual call point operation ( No false alarm calls) in the other the prison officers refused (50 ish a year)

As for the 45m all officers patrolling the wings have radios linked directly to the control room easy to investigate alarms and also easy to call for assistance from the fire service.

[messy]

The issue of Crown Property -and who inspects/enforces what- is a nightmare

Her Maj owns lots of 'non state' properties and The Crown Estate seem to be adding to their portfolio all the time. There are numerous shops, pubs, clubs, offices and restaurants across west London that she owns. (I wonder if she knows about her strip joints and various sex trade properties in London's Soho???)

The enforcing authority on many of these properties is the Crown Premises Insection Group (not the LFB) and where Liz occupies part of a Multi Occ premises, LFB and CPIG share enforcement duties.

It's all very messy

[Benzerari]

I thought none is above the law!

We want to make money from some one else mistakes, even if it is some one who sets the law for others, it has to be applied to him too!

[Chris Houston]

I thought none is above the law!

Nope.  As is traditional in monarchies, the head of state is indeed above the law.

[kurnal]

But of course not immune to the risk of fire. Windsor, Hampton Court, Buck house...... . It is simply that the Law is written such that any offences are procecuted by the Crown- and the Crown cannot prosecute herself- therefore all buildings owned and occupied by the Crown are not subject to regulation or enforcement.

[Mr. P]

I think the standard is pretty much consistent. Wherever you look, there are good and not so good inspectors, advisors etc.  MoD have no insurance, so great emphasis was put on their employees for higher degrees of awareness (we now call this community fire safety!). They (MoD) have fire fighters and officers of all levels deployed with the military in several 'hot' locations.  These guys give FF cover and specialist FS advice thereby keeping 'temporary' builds and sites up to standard as  much as is possible in war zones. Very commendable I think. I was told the MoD Fire are a fire authority in their own right as is any other brigade and has enforcement ability. I think that would be against the RP not Crown itself.
Recently visited a section of a prison, and there SD in the cells, protected by mesh boxes.  Not sure why CO dets would be considered as boiler, plant etc was remote. Did not see anything that would contribute to a CO risk either.

[Dinnertime Dave]

Not sure why CO dets would be considered as boiler, plant etc was remote. Did not see anything that would contribute to a CO risk either.

Having read a number of threads recently including this one there does seem to be some confusion on CO fire detection and Carbon Monoxide detectors.

So here goes –

Carbon Monoxide is invisible odourless and tasteless gas produced by incomplete combustion e.g. faulty household appliances such as gas and oil boilers, water heaters or ovens. They usually sound a warning if the levels reach 100ppm over 90 minutes, 200ppm over 35 minutes or 400ppm over 15 minutes. Two basic types of detectors

1.   Biometric – sticky pads that change colour.

2.   Gel cell detectors – photoelectric eye that senses a colour changes in a chemically treated disk of gel, this mimics the body’s response to CO absorption usually battery or mains powered.

These should not be confused with CO detectors used to detect fire.  

These electronic detectors protect against fire by sensing low amounts of CO in the air normally operate at 30-50ppm. There isn’t a relevant BS or European standard but should operate within 60 seconds of the concentration reaching 60ppm    

Effective for deep seated smouldering fires.

Do not pick up flaming fires or fires not involving carbon.

Good for hotels rooms and residential care bedroom but not recommended for escape routes.