Self contained manual fire alarm systems- eg Klaxalarm Terrier

[kurnal]

These and similar battery operated self contained alarms are commonly used in small workplaces and building sites.
Whilst they do not appear to have a back up power supply, operating only off dry cells, they do have a low battery alarm of considerable duration.
This does not conform to the guidance to the Health and Safety Signs and Signals Regulations as there is no backup power supply, however I take the view that the early warning of battery failure  and regular testing is generally a reasonable  compromise offering a similar level of safety- albeit no protection against dirty contacts.
Does anybody else  have a view on this?

[The Reiver]

We only sell them to places as a "temporary solution" such as site portakabins and site workshop containers etc.
However we do have a client who purchases them direct from the manufacturer for their shops.
Lack of any detection involved would be my main concern rather than the alarm actually sounding.

[Mr. P]

As per The Reiver.  Temporary as on build sites etc. Also small unit builds which are remote from neigbours ie. village hall, scout huts and the like, where only occasional use (few hours a week) takes place and you do not really need much more than a shout for alarm raising. But, then down to RA!  If the build is little used and no-one will hear the alarm when un-occupied...

[Chris Houston]

These and similar battery operated self contained alarms are commonly used in small workplaces and building sites.
Whilst they do not appear to have a back up power supply, operating only off dry cells, they do have a low battery alarm of considerable duration.
This does not conform to the guidance to the Health and Safety Signs and Signals Regulations as there is no backup power supply, however I take the view that the early warning of battery failure  and regular testing is generally a reasonable  compromise offering a similar level of safety- albeit no protection against dirty contacts.
Does anybody else  have a view on this?

Unlike most fire safety legislation, the signs and signals regulations don't leave any room for "risk assessment", they create a very specific need with regards to fire alarms in places of work.  Can't see how these comply to be honest.

[Psuedonym]

I have installed this type of alarm (Whilst at KAM Fire (bought out by ADT) we designed and manufactured our own prior to the Gemini's) but it was out of specific instruction from construction Co.s.
Their issues were cost and security of the systems (i.e. they didn't want a full blown compliance FA system due to cost, too many short term contractors damaging a costly sysytem, lack of power supply i.e. they wanted cover from the day the temp cabins were put in place.
As long as the detectors and MCP's were interconnected and they could replace the batteries when some kind soul pinched them (usually on the day following install) and the whole system sounded upon the activation of one device throughout all the interconnected cabins, they were happy.
Thus we supplied to demand, obviously they had been made aware of the correct regs but they looked at the subject from a different standpoint.

[John Dragon]

We supply extinguisher cabinets to caravan parks; these have an automatic alarm built into them.
The alarm sounds when the lid is lifted off the base (magnetic switch), I guess that these also do not comply as they also have no back up supply?
There are thousands of these thing out on caravan sites.    oh dear!
Comments please?

[Chris Houston]

I had always considered that the purpose of fire alarm cabinet alarms was more of a "someone has taken the extinguisher" rather than a "time to evacute there is a fire".

[kurnal]

Do your cabinets have a low battery warning John?
I always wondered whether the real purpose of those cabinet alarms was really to sound an alarm of fire or to deter vandalism.

I believe the old Caravan sites approach of a triangle alarm and fire buckets were different- in that the alarm had a dual role - it was also  used to summon assistance to form a chain gang with the fire buckets. Whilst units should be safely spaced out at 6m apart (if only) there is a need of warning to others in case the LPG cylinder should get a little too warm next to the fire. But that could be done by a runner.

 Units can be up to 90m from the fire point if I recall and some of those sounders are only audible within a short distance?

[John Dragon]

No low batt warning.
Purpose is to raise alarm, not to protect extinguishers.
Spacing of static caravans is set in stone (tourers may harder to police tho).
If memory serves right, without digging up the regs, 45 metres travel to nearest extinguisher for static caravans.
Touring sites are a lot less rigorous, so long as extinguishers are in same county, thats ok!!!!! slight sarcasm here.
This could potentially be a huge problem as nearly all sites have these things.

[AnthonyB]

Extinguisher cabinet alarms are designed purely as anti theft devices (ask the makers and take lead from the brand names e.g. Extinguisher Stopper), but could double as a fire warning.

Although they have no back up power, the self contained battery call point sounders are preferable to rotary gongs, triangles, air horns, etc in as much as they don't require/rely on someone staying in/running around the building to physically keep producing the alarm sound as long as required.

A realistic approach is required and most enforcing authorities and courts would surely take that into account (?) in certain situations, such as the caravan site, etc, despite the letter of the regs.

[kurnal]

I agree Anthony. It does not need to be problem unless someone makes it one. Is what is provided reasonable in the circumstances? That is the legal duty.

The need for a back up power supply is in the guidance to the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals)  Regs, not in the Regs themselves.

[John Dragon]

Guidance notes from local authorities who issue licence s for caravan parks read -

"manually operated sounder, gong or hand operated siren"

In practice most sites have now removed their triangles and rely on the alarms in the cabinets. We fit alarms in cabinets as they allow sites to pass the local authority requirements, not as a deterrent to vandalism which is very rare on caravan sites.

The alarms for cabinets are exactly the same alarm as the basic (non back-up) call point type but with the manual call point replaced with a magnetic reed switch.

Anthony, extinguisher stoppers are usually fitted to individual extinguishers, not to cabinets themselves (although they (STI) offer an "Exit Stopper" aimed at emergency exits).

Rightly or wrongly, cabinet alarms ARE used for raising the alarm on the vast majority of sites in the country.

Distances to fire points are -
Tourers - 90metres
Statics - 30 metres

Spacing between caravans -
plywood or similar skins, 6 metres
Aluminium, 5 metres(3.5 metres at corners).
Lots of other details like porches may extend into the spacing distance by 1 metre, awnings may reduce the distance to 3 metres.


All the above from guidance dated 2003!  so pinch of salt?

[Chris Houston]

So is there a sign with words (or symbols) to the effect: "open cabinet to raise fire alarm"?

[John Dragon]

So is there a sign with words (or symbols) to the effect: "open cabinet to raise fire alarm"?

Yes  (usually!!!)

[Benzerari]

These and similar battery operated self contained alarms are commonly used in small workplaces and building sites.
Whilst they do not appear to have a back up power supply, operating only off dry cells, they do have a low battery alarm of considerable duration.
This does not conform to the guidance to the Health and Safety Signs and Signals Regulations as there is no backup power supply, however I take the view that the early warning of battery failure  and regular testing is generally a reasonable  compromise offering a similar level of safety- albeit no protection against dirty contacts.
Does anybody else  have a view on this?

Yes, my quick googled search found the link below

http://www.klaxonsignals.com/fire-safety-pages/klaxalarm_terrier.htm

The Klaxalarm terrier have a batteries inside, but no mains power supply, I had found them fitted four years ago in one building which was part of a big workplace (of workplace group) which had a radio system of EMS Company, the fire officer that time said the klaxon terrier had to be removed and replaced by couple of EMS kit to be part of the main existing system of the whole site (EMS one). and that is what we had done.

Secondly the kalxalarm terrier have if I remember a lithium battery inside too, so even if you disconnect the battery, a fault buzzer still go off and it is loud enough, but if it is in closed none rented office then no one would notice about till the lithium battery gets flat, and that is what happened in our case four years ago...

According to what is specified in the document they can be used for temporary measures only...

But I have no idea if they have to be serviced each three months if the building works take longer than that...

Need to find out with the experts who know BS5839 by heart, and have a good interpretation in the matter...