Capacity of a nightclub - advise?

[Midland Retty]

If it is an empty pub and a new licensee wishes to take it over the RRO can't apply until the pub is trading.

So we use the licensing act to reply to the licensing authority and make sure the fire safety provisions are addressed.

I agree, don`t want detention can I go out to play now. Good debate though. Love to discuss TEN`s next.

Yes Master Dave you can go, but it looks as if Wee Brian might have to come to my office for the cane....

I just realised this all sounds a bit "kinky" really - best go away and think about what just happened here.

[CarlyD]

Hi Guys, wow this is all way above my head and very confusing.
I just called the licensing dept (NOT the fire safety dept) they have no capacity figures stated - only the hours that we are allowed to sell alchohol.
They suggested I call the local fire safety officer to find what the capacity is - which I have already done and he told me it's 780.
Does that mean there are no capacity figures on the premises, or does it mean that it is 780.

Thanks

CarlyD

[CivvyFSO]

I feel like we are covering old ground here, but...

That means that in the fire officers professional opinion you only have enough exits for 780 people.

The legal side of it is this: There is no actual legal stated capacity limit on how many people you can put in your club, it is really your responsiblity to work it out or to get a consultant in to work it our for you. Then this figure can go in your risk assessment, along with how you will control it. This fire officer has saved you the trouble of working it out, but if you don't want to believe him then you work out your own figure and justify your answer.

Now bear in mind that the fire safety order states:

---
14. (2) The following requirements must be complied with in respect of premises where necessary in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons—
(b) in the event of danger, it must be possible for persons to evacuate the premises as quickly and as safely as possible;
(c) the number, distribution and dimensions of emergency routes and exits must be adequate having regard to the use, equipment and dimensions of the premises and the maximum number of persons who may be present there at any one time
---

So, to work out the number of people your club can safely evacuate we would look at the current guidance, which I suspect would lead to suggesting that your club only has enough exits for about 780 people. So if you stick 2,000 people in, and we visit you, you will quite possibly end up in court for not complying with article 14(2)(c). We would be turning up to court with our guides and post war building studies to justify our figures.

[Midland Retty]

Hi CarlyD

Sometimes occupancy figures aren't put on licenses. There are several reasons for this but I won't bore you to death with all of them as they may add to the confusion.

It may be that occupancy figures are not imposed on a license because the licensing authority feels that the premises aren't expected to get swarms of people use it all at the same time (i.e small country pub with say a maximum of 100 opatrons at any one time as opposed to a concert hall which could have over 3000 people in at anyone time for instance).

Why an occupancy figure was never put on your license is not clear (could be numerous reasons) but as CivvyFSO has stated above where an occupancy figure isn't mentioned in your license you have to effectively "set an occupany figure yourself" using a fire risk assessment.

Do we get fee to entry to your club for all this fabulous advice we have given you?

We could all come down and do a joint fire risk assessment for you, in return for say free beer perhaps?

[CarlyD]

so does this mean that I am breaking the law if we exceed 780 then?

[Midland Retty]

Hmmmm not necessarily no.... but....

The fire officer has advised you that in his professional judgement 780 is the maximum and I'd stick to that to be honest.

The fire officer will have looked at the plans of your building, looked at how many exits you have and based his or her decison on that.

The problem you have is that whilst the licensing authority hasn't set an official occupancy figure on your license you still need to consider how many people can safely use your club.

To do that you should do your own occupancy calculations.

You will need to know how to technically assess exit widths and floor space factors. Its not brain surgery and there are guides available to help you

But if you don't have the time or dont want to sit and read the guidance you should hire a fire safety consultant to do the calcs for you, or alternatively as you have already done so ask the fire service / fire officer.

Be intresting to find out if the fire officer will be willing to confirm that figure in writing to you

[CivvyFSO]

I would say yes, you would be breaking the law, since article 14 of the RRFSO states that you need enough exits for people in the building.

[CarlyD]

as we have 3 fire exits of 1000mm to 1200mm and a main entrance/exit of 3000mm wide can we include the main entrance/exit?

Thanks for everyones help and comments.

CarlyD

[CivvyFSO]

All available guidance states that you should discount that main exit.

[MSD]

The 3rd para is in the commentary 6.6.1 but in the recommendations it was deleted ( see 6.6.2 b Text deleted ) therefore discounting of exits is recommended. Apparently when the new revision of part 6 was done this was missed.

[CarlyD]

Lots of people are quoting paragraphs and things, where can I get this document from to read it for myself.

Thanks

CarlyD

[jokar]

CarlyD. you can download the large places of assembly document for existing buildings at www. communities.gov.uk.  You need to g0 to fire and rsilience and then fire safety law and guidsance documents.  You can also access Approved Document B from the Planning Portal or you e mail me on this address and I will send you somebits.
jokar1975@hotmail.com

[Sambo]

Hi there, I'm new on here and relatively new to the industry so don't completely tear me apart if I'm completely wrong....

But I was having a look at DD9999 and you can get up to 1000 in based on reductions in the required door widths based on some combination of the sprinkler system, the ceiling heights and maybe an upgrade of the fire alarm. See Tables 17 & 18, DD9999 allows a maximum reduction to 3.3mm per person (3300/3.3). Don't know if this helps CarlyD, but it might be worth looking into getting a Fire Engineer on board and seeing what they can do about it.

[jokar]

There is a new draft of DD9999 out which is currently unreadable so before you look at this version get the proper copy.

[CarlyD]

Hi Jokar, I have emailed you for the docs if that's OK?

Thanks in advance

CarlyD