Hinges on Fire Doors

[Davo]

Nearly there/TW
 On checking some of my docs-

ASDMA (Auntie Lin?) top & bottom 250mm from top/bottom, third hinge 200mm below top hinge.
CAE just says two towards the top
BS8214 is vague
ASSA  says  same as ASDMA but 250mm for third hinge

Don't get me going on intumescent under the hinges!

saddo uup't north

[nearlythere]

It's just occurred to me that the whole of this subject could be viewed as irrelevant from one technical perspective...

When testing we often use a double swing doorset which automatically gives us approval for a single swing door, rather than testing both - which would cost twice as much, the point of this being that a double swing door is hung on a floorspring and restrained by a top centre - so no hinges at all!

Thanks RB
That clears it up no ends.

[kurnal]

Don't get me going on intumescent under the hinges!

saddo uup't north

Funny thing is I was just wondering what people think about the use of  intumescent under the hinges and around the lock?

[nearlythere]

Don't get me going on intumescent under the hinges!

saddo uup't north

Funny thing is I was just wondering what people think about the use of  intumescent under the hinges and around the lock?

Is that not the result of throwing everything at the door to ensure it passes the test first time? How much would be saved by leaving it out compared to a test failure and retest?

[redbadge]

Intumescent under hinges:

Don't usually use it in 30 minutes tests, but always do on 60 minute as the likliehood of burnthrough is to great at this level.

Again assessments vary as to requirements i.e. if the construction has only been tested with intumescent pads then they must be included.

Similar situation for all recessed ironmongery.

It'll save a whopping 30p (ish) to omit the pads - so not really that great a consideration, and err yes we do throw everything at test specimens!!!

[nearlythere]

Intumescent under hinges:

Don't usually use it in 30 minutes tests, but always do on 60 minute as the likliehood of burnthrough is to great at this level.

Again assessments vary as to requirements i.e. if the construction has only been tested with intumescent pads then they must be included.

Similar situation for all recessed ironmongery.

It'll save a whopping 30p (ish) to omit the pads - so not really that great a consideration, and err yes we do throw everything at test specimens!!!

How much does it cost RB to test a door?

[redbadge]

3 or 4k for FD or E 30, 5 or 6 for FD or E 60, you can usually squeeze a couple of specimens in as long as they're single.

From a developement point of view you'd probably need to do a minimum of 4 or 5 tests to get a meaningful set of approvals -
single and double doors with or without overpanels, single and double swing, with and without glazing etc etc etc

Typically 20 to 30k to develope a 30 minute design...

[nearlythere]

3 or 4k for FD or E 30, 5 or 6 for FD or E 60, you can usually squeeze a couple of specimens in as long as they're single.

From a developement point of view you'd probably need to do a minimum of 4 or 5 tests to get a meaningful set of approvals -
single and double doors with or without overpanels, single and double swing, with and without glazing etc etc etc

Typically 20 to 30k to develope a 30 minute design...

So my value for money blowlamp test could very easily take off then?

[redbadge]

3 or 4k for FD or E 30, 5 or 6 for FD or E 60, you can usually squeeze a couple of specimens in as long as they're single.

From a developement point of view you'd probably need to do a minimum of 4 or 5 tests to get a meaningful set of approvals -
single and double doors with or without overpanels, single and double swing, with and without glazing etc etc etc

Typically 20 to 30k to develope a 30 minute design...

So my value for money blowlamp test could very easily take off then?

I have to confess that I have been discovered outside with a couple of blow lamps myself, purely for intellectual reasons of course

[Davo]

Why do different guide books mention different lengths of screw?
Keep it clean or funny, please!

Anyways, you would always fit intumescent when you look at the standard of some of the chippies nowadays.

[redbadge]

Screws -

Generally the screws are supplied with hinges and are 32mm long which is adequte to secure them.

Moving away from fire performance a door has to perform other everyday functions, to mis-quote someone else "a door is always a door but only a fire door once".

Other tests exist which determine the mechanical durability of the leaf, and there are also other standards which are used to establish the crfedentials of a doorset in operational mode. When testing open close cycles the proprietry screws supplied with the hinges were found to be inferior in performance so specialised screws were used  - not length but quality!!!

[redbadge]

oops, posted before completing....

Intumescent will not detract from performance if it is fitted around / behind ironmongery provided it is the correct type - it's conceivably possible that using the wrong type can be problematic - a high pressure uni-directional seal in a substantial mortice could in theory push the face of the door away.

Also, too much intumescent can be as bad as too little so the seal dimensions must replicate that tested or approved.
There are massive performance differences on certain door constructions when differing seal compositions are used - so the base composition of the seal should also be established as correct.

[Davo]

Redbadge

Phewww........, seems to me someone ought to write a definitive spec for a fire doorset.
My library on fire doors runs to 20 documents and they all come from different angles.
I knew there were different types of intumescent from downloading some freebies from IFSA, didn't realise it applied to more than just frames/lips. The hinge stuff I have seen is red mainly pre shaped, the stuff in the frames mostly is white.

[Redone]

So upgrading a door set with products from such companies as Envirograph is fine as long as the door set the original test was performed on matches the door your upgrading...  I guess it's better than nowt.

[redbadge]

Davo,

the easiest way to tell what intumescent type you're using is to lick it (believe it or not) as they all taste different - don't ask how I discovered that.

"Interdens" is the best stuff to protect hardware as it exerts minimal pressure but expands muli-directionally a hell of a lot.

We use the pink substance for lining 60 minutes vision panels, although other systems have a white liner.

Generally (assuming it's not marked) a salty tasting white seal will be palusol based. A black one intercalated graphite. any others will be either mono ammonium phosphate or amonium polyphosphate.

Be careful of the less expensive products as they do not perform as well (surprise surprise).