Bed & Breakfast - Is my dream shattered?

[Chris Houston]

You are entitled to your opinion as much as the next bloke.  But the statement that all health and safety legislation is implimented only after deaths have occued is frankly wrong.  I don't think that pointing this out makes me pedantic.  I could list plenty other decent and beneficial pieces of legislation that have not been rushed through in a stable door manner.

[Ignatius Knight]

I've poured over the guidelines with renewed vigour and have a few questions:
1. How do I know whether the floors and walls are 30 minute rated. It is an old house so won't have been built to modern building regulations. Do I have to make holes and check the construction.

2. The doors are old solid wooden ones. They won't be 'certified', but are there any guidelines that say what the ratings of various thicknesses of wooden doors are, or are old solid wooden doors just not allowed.

3. Do I need a call point on each floor.

If I manage to buy the house I will do everything properly and in line with the regulations, but can't help but keep the friendly and interesting debate going:
Has anyone got any casualty, injury, incident statistics for b & b's with less than 6 guests, which were not covered under the old regulations, that would justify/explain bringing them under the new regulations. I'd be interrested to see how they compared with private houses, and larger b & b's that were covered by the previous regulations.

Midland Retty: I agree, it would be rude not to offer some inducement. So............ an extra rasher of bacon at breakfast on production of a passport confirming your forum indentity. :-)

[kurnal]

Oak is good. Very good. much better than pine. much slower burn rate. how thick is it? are they panel doors or ledged and braced?
Are they a good fit not warped etc?
I will email you a document about historic doors and fire resistance.

Fire alarm call point on each floor- yes if following the letter of the BS5839 part 1, but really in a place this small I would probably install one at the ground floor only- record this as a variation on the commissioning certificate. Indeed you would get away with a grade D LD1 system without manual call points and provide a Rank style gong to double as a fire alarm and to let MR know his bacon is ready.

[afterburner]

For those of us who were not part of your e-mail discussions, where in Scotland is your proposed B&B? (this is simple curiousity and has nothing to with complying with standards).

[Ignatius Knight]

Afterburner: The house we are looking at is in Dumfries & Galloway, 15 miles outside Dumfries. We like the area - I'm into mountain biking and walking - and the houses 'seem' realistically priced. We are struggling a bit with the Scottish system where the price the sellers want is a secret!!!! We just hope there is a market for a small, good quality B & B.

[afterburner]

Ig, there is always room in the market for a small good qulaity B&B. Your attention to fire safety details points to the quality you intend achieving. Once you're sorted out I will head your way with my walking group and a Forum ID Card!
as for the Scottish slant on compliance head for www.infoscotland.com/firelaw and click onto the downloads for Sector Specific Guides and you'll find one for smaller sleepiong premises. I know it's a bit of a tome but it has excellent advice there too.

[empiric]

Hi

I am new to this forum and trying to assess the requirements for my own 3 storey bed and breakfast.

1. Am I right that if no guests sleep on the second storey that floor does not have to have fire alarms.
2. If there are only 3 bed and breakfast rooms, all on the first floor, is the house a "large bed and breakfast" or a "small bed and breakfast"
3. If its a "small bed and breakfast" how do you decide if its Grade D LD2 or Grade D LD3.

Thanks

[kurnal]

1-no. Even a bungalow used for sleeping accommodation needs a suitable alarm system
2- probably a small B&B
3- Other fire safety factors- the layout, protection to the staircase, travel distance from bedrooms to final exit  the standard of doors, any areas of high risk, type of heating system all have a bearing. Most likely to need LD2 as LD3 is just detection in escape route, not really good enough except for the very smallest of places that are exssentially someones home with a guest room.

[empiric]

Hi Kurnal,

Thank you for your reply and advice

[devon4ever]

Thanks Kurnal.
I'm re-reading the guidlines in a bit more detail. I may come back with more questions!!!

Do you think this legislation will stick as the cost implications and in some cases the praticalities could be very onerous for a small B & B establishment.
As a layman and practical person I can't see the logic of as soon as you charge someone to sleep in your house you have to install a fire safety system that they would not dream of installing in their own house.

I could have a dozen of my own kids and an infirm granny living in my house without so much as a smoke alrm fitted, but have just me and one paying guest and all the regulations kick in. It doesn't add up. I'm not saying the first scenario is sensible or one that I would advocate, just that there seems to be a big disconnect in the thinking.

Mutters to self and goes away to re-read the regulations.

Ig

Ig,

You have had some excellent free advice on this forum, as already stated, you may do as you wish, (within reason), in your own house, but once you start up a business with public access there are regulations to be adhered to, would you let your children go on a school trip to a seedy hostel with scant regard to fire safety, I think not, there are standards on public safety for a reason, please dont view it as red tape to hinder the private sector.

[empiric]

kurnal wrote:

"4- emergency lighting over the main escape routes - yes- but this can be very cheap or very elegant and any anywhere between the two. Smallest places may even provide torches in every room. Running man- no. You show all guests the layout on arrival and provide a fire information sheet in their room. "


For a bed and breakfast which lets 3 room how can you decide if a torch in each room is sufficient.

Thank

[kurnal]

I usually make a jdgement whether the premises are a private house with a let room or two- chocolate box cottage scenario- or a small hotel business. Things that inform that judgement are the nature, layout, character, how it is used, how it is supervised, whether the exit droutes are simple or whether persons may need a torch anyway once they get outside- eg heart of the country.

The text book answer is emergency escape lighting  in escape routes and staircases to BS5266 prices start at £12.50 plus VAT- tale a look at safelincs.

I may relax that standard if my judgement says it is appropriate. But dont forget my judgement as a risk assessor is only that and there is no guarantee that the fire authority will agree and the judge if it came to that. The fire service usually accept a well reasoned case but sometimes we disagree- then they usually win!!

[empiric]

Hi Kurnal,

Thanks for your help.

Regards

[Steven N]

Ig i'm going along with the majority here you seem to at least want to comply & have looked at the law which is more than a lot of people who are already in business ever seem to do. The difference between what you do at home though compared to your B&B is that you are taking money from people which gives them the right to expect the premises to be safe &  that is the difference!

[Alan Keith]

Can anyone answer this question?   What are the statistics for fires and injury/fatalities in the UK for B&Bs in recent years?