Plz clarify the difference between Assessor and Responsible Person?

[Sunny]

Hi All,

I posted on this forum two weeks ago regarding me taking up the role as Admin Assistant at a Primary School and having been given the task to carry out a Fire Risk Assessment.  

I have discussed my concerns with the Head Teacher as to the level of competency/skills required in order for a person to carry out a FRA for a large school - she has asked if i can get some sort of clarification (written) to confirm what the difference is between the Assessor and Responsible Person's job - she has also asked if i can find out if there has to be the two ppl who carry out the FRA and questioned if i could play the role of both Assessor/Responsible Person?

I'm very confused and havent been able to find anything on the net to clarify the importance and differences between the two roles - the Head has advised that i can be provided the relevant training to act up for both roles - but we need to clarify how this all works - anyone able to help with this plz?

Much appreciated,

Sunny

[PhilB]

Hi Sunny

The responsible person is defined in the fire safety order in article 3.

If there is an employer, which there is in your case, the employer is the responsible person. In your case probably the head of the education authority.

Article 9 states that the responsible person must carry out a risk assessment.

There has been a guidance note recently issued to fire authorities that explains that although the duty is placed entirely on the responsible person to carry out the risk assessment, there is no problem with the responsible person appointing someone else to do it on their behalf.

Article 18 places a duty on the responsible person to appoint comptent persons to assist them in implementing the necessary fire safety measures.

So in simple terms the responsible person never changes...they are defined in law. They must carry out a risk assessment themselves...or appoint an assessor to do it for them.

They must also appoint competent persons to assist them in the day to day running of the premises ......and that is probably you.

If you require further clarification contact me by e-mail and I will arrange to explain this over the phone.

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051541.htm links to Fire Safety Order

[jokar]

A competent person has to have the necessary knowledge, experience. training and other qualities which allow them to undertake the role of a fire risk assessor.  This is a definition in law and whilst it is stated that for small low risk premises the level of competence can be low for higher life risk premises that level has to be higher.  many fire risk assessors have qualifications in fire safety, health and safety and general experience around both industries over multiples of years.  In short you have to know what you are doing, I for one would not rewire a house even though I am practically minded as I am not competent to do so.  Your posts on this subject lead me to believe that you are not sure whether you have the underpinning skills and knowldeg to do an FRA.  Therefore do not do it and expose yourself to the risk of getting it horribly wrong.

[CivvyFSO]

The Head Teacher will probably be viewed as the responsible person by the enforcing authority due to the amount of control they are given over the premises. If we were asking for something that the head teacher cannot approve, then we would end up working our way up the chain towards the local authority or the board of governers etc.

[PhilB]

Good points Jokar.

The order does not say that the responsible person or the assessor must be competent, however the Order does say that the assessment must be suitable & sufficient. How could anyone possibly carry out a suitable & sufficient assessment if they do not have the necessary skills, knowledge, experience etc?? They can't, but unfortunately many persons like yourself Sunny are put in this position by their employers.

Civvy The Headteacher will not be viewed as the responsible person by competent enforcing autthorities...the degree of control is irrelevant. They will most probably be considered as the person mentioned in article 5(3) who has to some extent control of the premises...sorry to pedantic...but RP is defined in Statute regardless of how FRS or CFOA view the situation.

[Mike Buckley]

PhilB I don't completely agree with you over the headmaster, I think this is going to be another of those grey areas dependent on how much control the headmaster has over the premises. Although some schools are maintained by the local authority others have a greater amount of independance and the headmaster and govenors have a greater amount of control.

This is assuming that the school is a local authority school and not a private or church school.

It looks like another gravy train for the legal profession!

[Chris Houston]

Sunny,

If you are an LEA school, please bear in mind that every other school has the same issue and that there may be someone at local authority level who can help - for example the health and safety department.

[PhilB]

PhilB I don't completely agree with you over the headmaster, I think this is going to be another of those grey areas dependent on how much control the headmaster has over the premises.
It looks like another gravy train for the legal profession!

Don't agree with me Mike??!!!!!! whatever next!!!

If the headteacher is the employer...yes they are the responsible person but are they always employers??

Without a doubt they will have to some extent control so notices can be served on them and further action taken against them if necessary.

But if a FRS serve a notice on them as the Responsible Person, and they appeal...I think they would win.

[wee brian]

I think we often confuse "responsible person" with a person who is responsible for something.

The RP is defined in the order, very often it will be the employer who will often take the form of a body corporate (the education authority for instance).

This doesnt mean that the Head teacher doesn't have responsibilities and duties, they clearly do. But they are not (necessarily) the RP.

Anybody who has contributed to a contravention can be prosecuted. From the RP down to an individual employee who flouts the safety rules set down by the RP etc.

The simple advice to Sunny therefore is  - dont worry about the definitions, the key task is that a suitable and sufficient risk assessment is carried out and that the necessary fire precautions are put in place.

If you feel competent to do this then that's fine. If you don't then get some training or get somebody to help you.

[Ricardo]

Tottaly agree with Phil here, have recently audited a LA  large primary school under the Fire (Scotland) Act, the headteacher in my scenario, most certainly did have control over the day to day running of the school, but is only issued an annual budget like all other heads in LA schools in my area, for repairs and maintenance purposes, when asked if that also refered to repairs and maintenance to fire safety measures, I was told it doesn't

So for me this head is most certainly a RP (dutyholder) in Scotland, but as he is not the employer, his Employer is the primary dutyholder, for the safety of all employees and other relevent persons, and responsible for conducting the FSRA.
The headteacher has fire safety responsibilities in my case, but only to the extent of matters within his control,

So unless its different south of the border, thats how it is here, anyone who has control to any extent of premises will have some responsibilities for ensuring that those occupying the premises are safe from harm caused by fire.
The greater the degree of control, the greater the responsibilities.

[kurnal]

I go along with Phil B and others- the Employer is the  Responsible person in any workplace. There may be other responsible persons- such as the landlord in a multi occupied building-  but the employer is ALWAYS the main if not the only one.  

Its most unlikely that the head teacher will be the employer- because they themselves are usually an employee of whoever is actally running the school- it my in some cases be governors, the local education authority or a joint committee.

[wee brian]

Like I said - a person with responsibility but not the responsible person - simple really.

[PhilB]

Ahh Wee Brian....it's never simple t'would spoil the fun!!!

[Clevelandfire]

I agree that the responsible person is ultimately the employer. Along the way you will have other people with varying degrees of responsibility too of course, but that has to be weighed up when taking enforcement action.

Thanks

Jim

[Jim Creak]

Dear Sunny,

I am almost sure that the head teacher has asked you to start the process of risk assessment which is extremely simple. Please do not be put off by the competence, experience or qualification type debate.  The only complicated part of a fire risk assessment is the building component and construction elements for which you may have to employ the services of a surveyor, however with a local authority you can seek assurance from the Education Department that the school has been properly maintained to a document named BB 100. You do not need to know what is in BB 100 just seek assurance that the construction elements and fire safety arrangements satisfy BB 100. Its like taking your car in for an MOT just get the certificate. If you do not get the certificate then you have a significant finding.

Next.....Audit the Fire Safety Management System...Root (Procedures) Trunk (Practice) and Branch (Training and Instruction)...This again is not rocket science just a series of questions to all members of staff that can be deemed to be in control to any extent of any specific assessment area.

If they do not know about the fire safety arrangements then this is a significant finding. All this is just good Management you do not have to have formal qulification to carry out a Fire Risk Assessment.

Now I never said it was easy only simple, it requires time,  methodical audit and persistence as well as good administrative and man management skills. If you want further help there is plenty of free advice here and at www.meansofescape.com