Author Topic: HMO or not...  (Read 8097 times)

Offline David Rooney

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HMO or not...
« on: February 07, 2008, 12:40:37 PM »
Block of purpose built self contained flats, probably Victorian. Common single staircase, 6 stories, short corridors on each floor (3) leading to 4-5 flats per floor.

It is essentially a block of flats. Many of the flats are owner occupied, a few have been rented out.

The tenant's association have had an RA carried out (by a fire alarm company.....?!) who have concluded this is an HMO and that under the RRFSO an L2 system is required in common parts - heat detector in each flat lobby, and an LD2 system in each flat.

Questions.

Is the chairman of the board the "responsible person" ?

Does the RRFSO apply ?

Is the chairman obligated to install an FDA system in the common parts, or even to advise the occupiers they should have their own mains powered detectors etc.?

Thanks
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Midland Retty

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« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2008, 01:57:39 PM »
Hi Dave - your brother Mickey played a blinder last night against Switzerland

Sorry being serious and to answer your questions:-

1) Yes the chairman would be the responsible person

2) Yes the RRO does apply (to the common areas only).

3) Under the RR(FS)O The chairman is responsible for identifying the fire precautions required in the premises by from the findings of a fire risk assessment.

The government fire safety guide which covers Sleeping Acommodation would dictate that mains powered detection is required in each individual flats and that an alarm is required in the common areas, but if s/he can come with a reasonable alternative which would achieve an equal standard of protection then that may also be acceptable.

Is the building an HMO? Thats a hard one to answer

The definition of a HMO could apply to this property and the best way to determine whether or not this is a HMO is by approaching the local housing standards team at the council for their opinion (should you wish to take it to that extent of course). It may be that it could be subject to HMO licensing.

My gut feeling is that it would be classified as being purpose built flats.

I would generally agree with the Alarm company that an alarm system is required in the common areas because i doubt whether the building was either built or upgraded to modern buildings standards.

There should also be mains powered detection in individual flats as you correctly pointed out.

But again this is just benchmark guidance, the RP can deviate with alternatioves which achieve the same level of protection.

Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2008, 02:04:21 PM »
David
You say a purpose built block of flats probably Victorian. Don't think this could be unless major major refurbishment.
L2 could be installed because it is not really purpose built, possibly.
RP could be Board.
RRFSO may apply to common escape routes only.
AFD to BS5839? - depends on seperation between flats.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Offline David Rooney

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« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2008, 03:20:43 PM »
Thanks men... Retty ... can't believe you're old enough to remember Mickey...... =D

The block is old and as you say, probably doesn't meet building regs re separation etc. Certainly none of the doors have strips or seals.

So is the reason for having AFD in the common areas simply because no one can guarantee the fire separation and compliance with Building Regs?

Only ask because we also deal with a similar block only a few years old where islington council have said they do not require a fire alarm system in the common areas....
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Offline nearlythere

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« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2008, 04:10:56 PM »
David
The doors are not the main issue as they can be upgraded to a suitable level of FR. Purpose built flats are normally built with, off the top of my head, I think it is 2 hrs seperation. This would be very difficult to achieve, if not impossible, with traditional timber floors, ceilings, walls and partitions.
Hence the L2 I would suggest.
Either that or the installer is getting the arm in.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Midland Retty

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« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2008, 04:17:46 PM »
Yep I agree with Nearlythere!

Why on earth did I say "Micky" when I meant "Wayne"?

Mind you that said Mickey Rooney might be better than some england players in the squad!

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2008, 04:25:21 PM »
ADB 7.9 may be of interest?

Offline David Rooney

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« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2008, 04:33:32 PM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
Why on earth did I say "Micky" when I meant "Wayne"?
Age.... whisky.... !!
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Offline wee brian

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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2008, 04:41:32 PM »
I thought you were being clever - my mistake.

Midland Retty

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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2008, 04:42:11 PM »
Quote from: David Rooney
Quote from: Midland Retty
Why on earth did I say "Micky" when I meant "Wayne"?
Age.... whisky.... !!
Both!....

.... oh and add "certified" to the list too....

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2008, 05:27:32 PM »
Flats can be designed to such a level of fire safety that if one flat has a fire,  just the flat involved evacuates and everybody else stays put, the fire brigade review this on arrival and may consider advising others to leave.

To achieve this standard
-all floors and walls between flats and between flats and stairs are fire resisting  to a one hour standard if below 18m high or 90mins if less than 30m high,
-all flat entrance doors to a half hour standard with self closers,
-all flats designed with an entrance lobby, no inner rooms, maximum travel distance 9m in flat to bedroom door,
-limited travel distance of 7.5m in a dead end corridor off the stairs if the corridor is provided with an automatic ventialtor or window of 1.4m2 or 4.5m if not ventilated,
- no fire risk or ancillary accommodation in the stairway if single staircase
- opening windows or automatic vents in the staircase.

If it achieves all of these its considered safe to stay put and theres no need for a common areas fire alarm system.

If it doesn't hit all these points then it needs a common areas fire alarm and detection system because its possible that a fire in a flat could affect the staircase cutting off others means of escape and trapping them in the building. The reaosnable compromise in my opinion is L2 with smokes in the common parts and heat detectors inside each entrance door, and self contained LD3 in each unit. Audibility of common areas alarm can be problem.

As far as I recollect the first buildings that were constructed to this safe stay put design were from 1971 onwards, though some older buildings in London particularly will be found because their building bylaws allowed for this design much earlier. There are other designs as well such as balcony approach where stay put may be safe- I was tilting the answer to the case in point.

Sounds a bit familiar Dave- not a poison chalice I trust?

Offline David Rooney

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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2008, 06:41:49 PM »
No its quite interesting actually... just don't think it was worth sacrificing a tree for the RA that doesn't say anything except "you need a fire alarm system" !!

Am talking to local building control to see what they think of the building.... will let you know.

.... and the info you posted is very useful by the way !
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Clevelandfire

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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2008, 10:43:19 PM »
In my experience even blocks of flats that have been built to Building Regs from 1971 tend to have gaping holes in them allowing the passage of smoke.

So it goes to show that buildings which are supposed to be watertight quite often aren't and I'd air on the side of caution all the time. I therefore highly recommend a fire alarm in the common areas.

Offline jokar

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« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2008, 08:56:42 AM »
Without being rude to anyone  What for?  Who is nominated under BS 5839 part 1 2002 as the Responsible Person?  Who is nominated as the Competent Person under BS 5839 Part 1 2002.  Who goes to the alarm when it is functioning in its alert stage?  Who completes the weekly and monthly tests, the log book and monitors the false alarms?  Which person has responsibility for summoning the FRS?  The problem with fire alarm systems in residential blocks are all of the above and that is without the vandalism.  No control menas exactly that.

Offline Tom Sutton

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« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2008, 12:00:12 PM »
Quote from: David Rooney
The tenant's association have had an RA carried out (by a fire alarm company.....?!) who have concluded this is an HMO
If you want to check if it is a HMO try http://www.firesafe.org.uk/assets/docs/hmodefinition.pdf it may be of some help however the final arbiter is the Local Housing Authority.
You may need http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/ukpga_20040034_en_1 aswell.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.