HMO's

[Chunty]

A friend of mine has a two storey early 20th century building that was converted in to four flats many years ago. With the advent of the RRO they are asking me if it is a requirement that they install automatic detection? Now I've done many years operationally but none at all in fire safety, can anyone assist with this please?

The layout of the building is very simple, two flats leading in to a ground floor hall just a few seconds from the front door (the only exit) and two more flats up a straight flight of stairs from the same exit.

I've taken a look at the relevant guidance document on the DCLG website which suggests a Grade 3 LD3 system would be necessary for the size and type of property use. Does this concur with those of you more educated than I?

[wee brian]

Sorry mate - it depends......

LD3 in each flats is the minimum, but that assumes that the conversion was done to building regs and the compartmentation is OK.  If it wasnt then you end up with a common alarm system for the whole house, the spec for which will vary with the layout etc.

[Chunty]

Thanks Wee Brian, excuse my ignorance but what is the definition of a 'common alarm system', I have read the guidance and see the various grades of system mentioned but I haven't caught this phrase anywhere. Thanks for help with this.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Chunty

A "common fire alarm system" is a fire alarm system which covers the common areas of a premises. In other words the common areas would be the hall and staircase that you mentioned in your friends HMO.

Common areas tend to be escape routes too. In the case you mention the common areas would be the means of escape for your tenants.

Common fire alarm systems sound the alarm throughout the building when activated, whereas individual flats should have stand alone mains powered detectors which only activate / sound in the affected flat.

The theory being that if a resident burns the toast the stand alone detector will sound in their own flat, but won't sound in any one elses flat and this prevents anyone having to evacuate unecessarily.

Lets say a residenet has popped to the shops and has left the oven on and a fire starts, the smoke and flame should in theory be confined to the flat.

But because the premises may not have been converted to building regulation standards and thus the quality of fire stopping can't guaranteed the common alarm system is installed to detect any smoke which starts to impinge onto the common areas / escape routes.

Also the common fire alarm system will detect if any of the local "pond life" have managed to gain access to the common areas and lit a fire.

[wee brian]

Yeah thas what I meant - sorry, us fire safety bods have a lingo of our own.

[stewbow]

Hi Chunty

A "common fire alarm system" is a fire alarm system which covers the common areas of a premises. In other words the common areas would be the hall and staircase that you mentioned in your friends HMO.

Common areas tend to be escape routes too. In the case you mention the common areas would be the means of escape for your tenants.

Common fire alarm systems sound the alarm throughout the building when activated, whereas individual flats should have stand alone mains powered detectors which only activate / sound in the affected flat.

The theory being that if a resident burns the toast the stand alone detector will sound in their own flat, but won't sound in any one elses flat and this prevents anyone having to evacuate unecessarily.

Lets say a residenet has popped to the shops and has left the oven on and a fire starts, the smoke and flame should in theory be confined to the flat.

But because the premises may not have been converted to building regulation standards and thus the quality of fire stopping can't guaranteed the common alarm system is installed to detect any smoke which starts to impinge onto the common areas / escape routes.

Also the common fire alarm system will detect if any of the local "pond life" have managed to gain access to the common areas and lit a fire.

Surely the Common fire alarm as you call it, should also extend into each of the flats so as to protect the entrance door to the flat. The fire caused by the resident popping out to the shops needs to be detected before it breaks through the front door, therefor smoke logging the escape route of the other tennants.

[kurnal]

If it  does need a common areas fire alarm and detection system (due to the standard of its design, layout or construction) it would be L2 with detectors (heat) in the entrance of each flat and a stand alone LD3 in each flat. But if the block is to a good design standard it doesnt need a common areas fire alarm at all.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Chunty

A "common fire alarm system" is a fire alarm system which covers the common areas of a premises. In other words the common areas would be the hall and staircase that you mentioned in your friends HMO.

Common areas tend to be escape routes too. In the case you mention the common areas would be the means of escape for your tenants.

Common fire alarm systems sound the alarm throughout the building when activated, whereas individual flats should have stand alone mains powered detectors which only activate / sound in the affected flat.

The theory being that if a resident burns the toast the stand alone detector will sound in their own flat, but won't sound in any one elses flat and this prevents anyone having to evacuate unecessarily.

Lets say a residenet has popped to the shops and has left the oven on and a fire starts, the smoke and flame should in theory be confined to the flat.

But because the premises may not have been converted to building regulation standards and thus the quality of fire stopping can't guaranteed the common alarm system is installed to detect any smoke which starts to impinge onto the common areas / escape routes.

Also the common fire alarm system will detect if any of the local "pond life" have managed to gain access to the common areas and lit a fire.

Surely the Common fire alarm as you call it, should also extend into each of the flats so as to protect the entrance door to the flat. The fire caused by the resident popping out to the shops needs to be detected before it breaks through the front door, therefor smoke logging the escape route of the other tennants.

You are right, but for reasons Kurnal have mentioned you don't always need to put elements of the common alarm system into the flats.

There are exceptions however and something like a sheltered block of flats you would have a heat detector from the common alarm in each flat as well as a stand alone mains powered smoke detector

[FSO]

Ok Chaps

Bringing this one up again to try and iron out a bit of confusion we have here in the office.

If you have an HMO of 3 floors with fd30s doorsets on each bedsit (single room bedrooms) what AFD do you speciry to be fitted?

The guides and part 6 specify a grade A LD2 for the common areas, fine. But the note says that an individual private dwelling should have a grade D LD2 or LD3 not to be connected to the AFD in the common areas.

Surely by the very nature of an LD2 system, there should be detectors in the access room (bedroom in this case) that lead to the common parts.

Very conflicting....

Has anyone got a definitive answer at all???

Many thanks

Jay

[wee brian]

If its a HMO then they arent individual private dwellings.

Its one House that is Occupied by Multiple households. (that's why they call then HOMs!)

[FSO]

I totally agree wee brian.

However, it is was an individual private dwelling as you imply then it would not even be mentioned in the guides as the RRO would not apply.

The table I refer to is on page 55 of sleeping accomodation. It states individual private dwelling, however it would appear they are refering to the 'flat' itself.

therefore my original question still stands.

regards

Jay

[wee brian]

Yeah this is where we vanish up our own backsides!

My rule of thumb is - shared facilities - shared alarm. Self contained flats, self contained alarms.

I may write a book.

[FSO]

Yes I totally agree.

It would be nice to know what the 'official' standards are. They just seem to be so contradicting!!!!!

Lets keep on chasing our own tails.....again!!!

Cheers

Jay

[Midland Retty]

I agree with Wee Brian

This is my take on the situation:- (and Im ready for the flack that I get back for this)

AFD REQUIRED IN COMMON AREAS IF THE PREMISES ARE:-

1) a HMO
2) Self contained flats not constructed to current building regulations
3) Flats converted for sheltered housing purposes

AFD NOT REQUIRED OR POTENTIALLY UN ENFORCEABLE IN:-

1) Self contained Flats built to current building regulations
2) Block of individual privately owned flats *
3) Block of individual privately owned flats where some of the individual owners then let out their flat  (ie mutiple landlords)*


* This is where things get complex, the whole thing kicks itself up the backside, and common sense and quantum physics all break down.

In these instances I have known Fire Officers suggest that AFD should be installed within the common areas of the block because they can't control what goes on within the flat. I understand that logic, but unfortunately attempting to enforce that would be a nightmare if the residents failed to comply. (residents would be seen as the RP)

Multiple landlord scenarios in my opinion could get very messy too.

Furthermore the question of common fire alarm systems is apparently discussed as being potentially a bad idea in Colin Toddddd's guite to BS 5839 Part 6

see http://www.fire.org.uk/punbb/upload/viewtopic.php?id=2697 for further info - I didn't get much response in terms of peoples opinions on that

[kurnal]

Yeah this is where we vanish up our own backsides!

My rule of thumb is - shared facilities - shared alarm. Self contained flats, self contained alarms.

I may write a book.

I look forward toreading it Wee B. I have never seen anatomy and fire safety successfully covered in a single volume.