Fire Safety in Church

[AnthonyB]

Even if the clerics were not paid and even if the premises could be deemed not to be subject to FPA or FP(W)R it would be wise to do an FRA as not only is it sensible anyway, the RRO would surely kick in and cover the premises (when it eventually emerges in 100 years time)!

I've seen varying standards in churches - some have no precautions or just some ancient extinguishers; others have extinguishers to the church and the church hall type bit attached having some rudimentary compartmentation, fire doors and escape lighting if licensed and others still have the whole 9 yards.

[Ken Taylor]

'Clerics' and many other ministers of religion are employees and so the whole raft of employment law will apply. However some churches do not have employees (eg some non-conformist groups like, Christian Brethren, House Churches, etc) although many will have their own buildings for their meetings.

[Guest]

Thanks for your useful comments so far, I knew there were some sensible professional people out there. From the earlier comments I am concerned for some of the posters clients and what advice they are getting !!!!!!!!!

[Guest]

The church might and I do say might come under the FP (special Premises)Act am trying to find out more on that

At the risk of sounding catty I think that someone who said and I quote "At the risk of sounding realistic" shouldnt be a fire prevention officer if thats his attitude.

Lets help others out shall we rather than try and ridicule them.

Being smart doesnt impress anyone.

[Chris Houston]

I think everyone who has posted suggestions is, clearly, trying to help out.  I hope my comments have not been misinterpreted.

I also think we should avoid commenting on each other's ability to work in their profession based on a very limited knowledge of their ability.

Going back to the subject matter, if there are cleaners or any other employees in the building, they have an employer and therefore the legislation applies.  Even if it doesn't there are still duties under Health and Safety legislation and even the Occupiers Liability Act requiring known risks to be properly managed.

[wee brian]

I have alittle experience of this kind of building.

From what I saw you have a public building with a potentially high occupancy but often with only one decent means of escape.

Its unrealistic to expect 500 year old churches to be modified to current standards and the risk of fire probably wouldn't warant it.

But extra care with potential sources of fire that may obstruct the exit is needed. Candles are the obvious ignition source but these are usually used with porpoer holders.

Its the old PC or Electric organ stuck in the lobby behind a big velvet curtain that is potentialy more of a problem.

[AnthonyB]

The church might and I do say might come under the FP (special Premises)Act am trying to find out more on that
.

I would be worried if any church was doing anything to come under the FC(SP) Regs! (see below)

Premises for which a FC(SP) Regs 79 fire certificate is required

 

1 Any premises at which are carried on any manufacturing processes in which the total quantity of any highly flammable liquid under pressure greater than atmospheric pressure and above its boiling point at atmospheric pressure may exceed 50 tonnes.


2 Any premises at which is carried on the manufacture of expanded cellular plastics and at which the quantities manufactured are normally of, or in excess of, 50 tonnes per week.


3 Any premises at which there is stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of liquefied petroleum gas in quantities of, or in excess of, 100 tonnes except where the liquified petroleum gas is kept for use of the premises either as a fuel, or for the production of an atmosphere for the heat treatment of metals.


4 Any premises at which there is stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, liquefied natural gas in quantities of, or in excess of, 100 tonnes except where the liquefied natural gas is kept solely for use at the premises as a fuel.


5 Any premises at which there is stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, any liquefied flammable gas consisting predominantly of methyl acetylene in quantities of, or in excess of, 100 tonnes except where the liquefied flammable gas is kept solely for use at the premises as a fuel.


6 Any premises at which oxygen is manufactured and at which there are stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, quantities of liquid oxygen of, or in excess of, 135 tonnes.


7 Any premises at which there are stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, quantities of chlorine of, or in excess of, 50 tonnes except where the chlorine is kept solely for the purpose of water purification.


8 Any premises at which artificial fertilizers are manufactured at which there are stored, or there are facilities provided for the storage of, quantities of ammonia of, or in excess of, 250 tonnes.


9 Any premises at which there are in process, manufacture, use or storage at any one time, or there are facilities provided for such processing, manufacture, use or storage of, quantities of any of the materials listed below in, or excess of, the quantities specified-


Phosgene 5 tonnes

Ethylene oxide 20 tonnes

Carbon Disulphide 50 tonnes

Acrylonitrile 50 tonnes

Hydrogen cyanide 50 tonnes

Ethylene 100 tonnes

Propylene 100 tonnes

Any highly flammable liquid 4,000 tonnes

not otherwise specified


10 Explosives factories or magazines which are required to be licensed under the Explosives Act 1875(a).


11 Any building on the surface at any mine within the meaning of the Mines and Quarries Act 1954(b).


12 Any premises in which there is compromised-


  (a)
 any undertaking on a site for which a licence is required in accordance with section 1 of the Nuclear Installations Act 1965(c) or for which a permit is required in accordance with section 2 of that Act; or

 
  (b)
 any undertaking which would, except for that fact that it is carried on by the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority, or by, or on behalf of, the Crown, be required to have a licence to in accordance with the provisions mentioned in subparagraph (a) above.

 

13 Any premises containing any machine or apparatus in which charged particles can be accelerated by the equivalent of a voltage of not less than 50 megavolts except where the premises are used as a hospital.


14 Any premises at which there are in process, manufacture, use or storage at any one time, or there are facilities provided for such processing, manufacture, use or storage of, quantities of unsealed radioactive substances classified according to Schedule 3 of Ionising Radiations (Unsealed Radioactive Substances) Regulations 1968(d) in, or in excess of the quantities specified-


Class I radio nuclides 10 curies

ClassII and III radio nuclides 100 curies

Class IV radio nuclides 1,000 curies


15 Any building, or part of a building, which either-


  (a)
 is constructed for temporary occupation for the purposes of building operations or works of engineering construction; or

 
  (b)
 is in existence at the first commencement there of any further such operations or works

 

and which is used for any process or work ancillary to any such operations or works.

[Ken Taylor]

Common Law and the Occupier's Liability Act will certainly apply, Chris. As to Health and Safety at Work law, it applies to employers, self-employed persons, persons in control of workplaces, persons who design workplaces, persons wo supply items for use at work, etc - ie employment for work has to be the test (whether or not with a contract of employment or even paid). If the cleaner is employed to clean, the employer will be subject to H&S law but not necessarily the building if it is not under the control of the employer - but the employer will have a duty to see that the work is without risk so far as is reasonably practicable. Some churches are basically groups of local people formed together as a church but without any central employing body and employing no-one. They probably do their own cleaning or engage contract cleaners and other tradesmen when necessary. Nevertheless they have legal duties of care as occupiers to their visitors and neighbours - which must imply assessing the risks and doing what is reasonable to control them.

[John Webb]

I am, as far as I am aware, the only (part-time, voluntary) fire safety consultant to an Anglican Diocese, following 28 years employment at the Fire Research Station. This reply is the nearest I can be to definitive, but applies only to Anglican churches in detail.
(a) Vicars & Rectors are considered to be 'Self-employed' for tax purposes - they have the 'freehold' of the living and no written contract of employment, strange to relate! Therefore srictly speaking they are not employees.
(b) Any employment, eg cleaners, full or part-time, immediately brings in requirements under H&S at Work. Over 5 people, or any one working above the ground floor, makes written assessments for fire and other safety issues mandatory.
(c) all will change next year when churches are included as assembly buildings as part of the new fire reform act - details not yet available.
(d) Information from:
(i) Ecclesiastical Insurance Office in Gloucester
(ii) Churches Main Committee - a booklet published several years ago
(iii) Fire Prevention/Fire Journal, February this year has an article on an assessment system devised by Dr Alex Copping at Bath University regarding property protection.
Sorry for a brief answer, but hope it helps.

[John Webb]

I forgot to mention in my previous reply that both HSE and Insurers recommend treating church voluntary workers as if they were paid employees. HSE do this to protect the workers, Insurers do this to reduce the risk of themselves and their customers paying out large sums to people injured on church premises!
So it is advisable to carry out risk assessments of both the building (such as fire, slips and trips etc.) and of all the jobs that volunteers as well as paid staff do.

Churches Main Committee is at 1, Millbank, London, SW1P 3JZ or on
http://www.cmainc.org.uk

Plenty of info re legislation and risk assessments on FireNet - just keep looking.

Most major denominations have someone concerned about fire safety - contact the head office or equivalent. The Anglicans work mostly on details at Diocesan level; they should contact the secretary of their Diocesan Advisory Committee on Church Buildings - the 'DAC' as it's often known for short.

[Peter Wilkinson]

If you look hard enough, you can find a website on any topic!

http://www.churchsafety.org.uk/information/assess/fire_assess.htm

[John Webb]

Many thanks for drawing my attention to that website.
Dr Alex Copping's assessment includes some 17 areas of fire safety with many useful aide-memoirs, even for the experienced.
He works on a 0-5 scale and weights the results so those areas with the most effect on fire protection produce the worst figures if they are not in good order. So hopefully it enables not only an individual building to be properly assessed but also a consistent yardstick to compare the fire protection between a number of different buildings.

[Mike Muscroft]

I suggest you take a look at the Church Occupational Safety & Health website for some very good sound advice, all of which is free.

Go to http://www.c-osh.org.uk

There is a section dedicated to Fire risks etc.
Hope this helps.

[Imran]

Greetings in the precious name of Jesus Christ. My name is Aruna and my husband’s name is Moeen Sadiq, we both are retired people and are serving the lord by feeding the poor people living in cloth made houses such as tents and facing the extream weathers of Pakistan, we are as well teaching the children from age 5 to 12 years the basics of gospel and our language Urdu, we are doing all this work from our limited resources, we request you to pray for our vision and our ministry “ followers of Jesus Christ” because we know when people of God pray for a just cause He answers their prayers.
                                                                                             Your sister in Jesus
                                                                                             Mrs.Aruna Moeen Sadiq

[Roy Grogan 02]

Have just tried google for emergency lighting in churches.  Whole load of addresses and useful information ranging from Baptists through to .... well I havent reached z yet.  All give sound sensible advice and are telling the same story.  Why do they have so much trouble with their other story?

Mind how y go
Roy