Small Guest House or HMO

[kurnal]

Have come across a small guest house with 4 letting bedrooms with communal toilet. breakfast is offered and evening meal.
Two storey detached building with a beautiful staircase open at the bottom to a very large and attractive furnished entrance hallway about 12m by 8m, with upholstered furniture, gas fire, walnut grand piano and original oil paintings.  Total travel distance from furthest bedroom door down open stairs to final exit about 14m. Very nice building and beautifully furnished including the rooms but in a unique time warp - 1930s feel throughout. (Historically used to be three bedrooms - non cert hotel)

Window exits available from first floor let bedrooms onto small bay windows, Grade 2 listed building.

As the guest House only takes guests from two local companies by arrangement- invariably able bodied young men and women on corporate training courses  and is not open to general public would it be reasonable to apply HMO guidance and allow the window exits?

Do you think it could be legally possible to classify it as HMO in view of the resticted clientele who are referred by their employer?

[PhilB]

Whether or not it is an HMO is irrelevant as far as I can see.

If a risk assessment can justify emergency egress windows are they not acceptable in a hotel, a hostel, a house, a dwelling, a single private dwelling or indeed any building?

I know ADB only accepts them for flats & houses but I would live them in the situation you describe.

[messy]

Is this a window escape onto a balcony or stairs to a place of safety? or wait for the Brigade type escape window?

[kurnal]

Hi Phil

The local brigade are talking prohibition which wouldn't be the first time they have done this in this particular  authority. They take the robust view that for a hotel or guest house, if the layout is open plan then only a conversion to create a protected route or sprinklers will do.  (Canrt see how sprinklers will help people to  pass though the open plan staircase myself but it will suppress the fire so give them longer to contemplate use of the window escape). They justify this by saying that in offering a hotel bed the escape routes must be capable of use by anyone who may present themselves at the door. I do respect their view and having aired it on this forum a couple of times in the past it seems to be the commonly held view of most contributors. Personally I make a value judgement and in guest houses that feel like someones private home I apply domestic standards as per ADB with additional detectioon , and in places that feel more like a hotel business I generally strive to  apply the sleeping guide standard. So if it is really a HMO because of the limited clientele, it would be appropriate to apply the HMO guidance which in this particular area, and in the LCORS draft guidance, specifically allows a window exit.

Is it a guest house or HMO is the question I think.

Messy- the windows are casements 700mm x 600mm 3m above surrounding ground which lead out onto 1.5m x 400mm shelves which form the roof of the bay windows below at a height of 2.5m above the ground.

[Tom Sutton]

According to Housing Act 2004 - 254 (c) the living accommodation is occupied by those persons as their only or main residence or they are to be treated as so occupying it (see section 259)

Because it does not conform to that clause it does not appear be a HMO but there is a loophole if you check out.

Section 259 (2) A person is to be treated as so occupying a building or part of a building if it is occupied by the person—
(a) as the person’s residence for the purpose of undertaking a full-time course of further or higher education;

I understand this to be student flats but I cannot find any definitions so I guess its how you interpreted it.

[wee brian]

Point to note - there arent any HMO standards. Unless you want to cal, the HHSRS a standard!

I'm with Kurnal on this one, the brigade is being disproportionate (again) I hope the owners appeal. Or better still go to the Sof S for a determination.

[kurnal]

Thanks Thomas

I wonder how the housing act definition covers migrant workers who certainly have another residence albeit abroad?

[wee brian]

The Housing Act is probably the worst piece of legislation ever written in the UK. If anybody can work out what it means then they are genius.

[kurnal]

Good point Wee Brian- but I was tending to use the new LACORS consultation draft as a benchmark, as you know many local councils have written their own standards documents to be used as a benchmark for compliance with HHSRS- of course they probably would not stand up to legal scrutiny

[CivvyFSO]

Kurnal

I think it is quite obvious that it is a guest house. As much as you want it to be a HMO to allow the window escapes I am sure that you know it is not a HMO.

PhilB hit the nail on the head. Basically use the risk assessment process as intended. You may have to be brave and take the fire service on though. (Or they will have to be brave and take you on, depending on which way you look at it) Remember your/their defence is to be able to prove "It was not reasonably practicable to do anything more"

twSutton, I think that section is pointing towards full time students and wherever they may live, not a particular type of premises. So wherever they live, if they are away from what they may class as their home (i.e. Parents house) but living in digs, they are occupying that premises regardless of it being a HMO, student flats or house etc.

[CivvyFSO]

Thanks Thomas

I wonder how the housing act definition covers migrant workers who certainly have another residence albeit abroad?

It seems that the local authority can just 'declare it' a HMO. "Because I say so!"... Nice touch really. That would stop any arguments.

[kurnal]

Thanks CivvyFSO

No you read me wrong. I have no axe to grind with the fire officer and I have no intention of taking him on. Like him I want the right standard for the protection of the persons who use this building. I have not yet made my own mind up what I think that standard is. I would not want my mum having to climb out of a window to escape a hotel fire.

But  to identify correct benchmark  I am just seeking to clarify the legal position. Under the Fire Precautions Act the circulars used to give us a defintion of a hotel. Thus the sleeping accommodation blocks at the Fire Service College were deemed not to be  certifiable Hotels and Boarding Houses.   In a similar way this private  "Hotel" is only used by two major local employers to put up overnight visitors. They do no marketing and there is no sign at the end of the drive. There is no entry in the local tourist information leaflet. The sleeping accommodation guide may well be the correct benchmark- but to be fair I want to explore all options.

[Mike Buckley]

Kurnal, just to swap the fire service's arguement around. If they are saying that in offering a hotel bed the escape routes must be capable of use by anyone who may present themselves at the door, do they mean that if I present myself at the door of any guest house in their area in a wheelchair I will be able to use all the escape routes?

I am not sure of the legislation but isn't there a definition that if you call yourself a hotel etc. you must accept anyone who presents themself at the door. Therefore as the house in question does not accept anybody it cannot be defined as a hotel etc. so the requirements cannot be applied.

[CivvyFSO]

Mike

I would suggest that their reply may simply be that the requirements can be applied by virtue of it not being a "single private dwelling".

Kurnal

I would say the legal standing as far as the fire safety order goes is that is is definitely not a single private dwelling, so your only hope as you are aware is it being a HMO thus changing the enforcing authority to LA. But remember, even then the FRS could enforce their standard over the common areas to protect relevant persons which they may well do since it is an issue they are aware of so it is harder to 'wash their hands of it'.

[Tom Sutton]

It seems that the local authority can just 'declare it' a HMO. "Because I say so!"... Nice touch really. That would stop any arguments.

CivvyFSO they can, but have apply section 255 HMO declarations

(1) If a local housing authority are satisfied that subsection (2) applies to a building or part of a building in their area, they may serve a notice under this section (an “HMO declaration”) declaring the building or part to be a house in multiple occupation.

However whether a HMO or not. part 1 chapter 1 of the act applies to all residential premises and HHSRS guidance applies.

HHSRS is a risk assessment procedure introduced by the Housing Act 2004 to replace the old fitness standard which formed part of the ‘Decent Home Standard’. The underlying principle of HHSRS is that any residential premises should provide a safe and healthy environment for any potential occupier or visitor - including freedom from both unnecessary and avoidable hazards.

I fully agree with your submission #14