Author Topic: Small Guest House or HMO  (Read 26436 times)

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #30 on: February 29, 2008, 07:33:31 AM »
Quote from: Clevelandfire
Window escapes are troublesome. The term able bodies is banded around alot. Define the term able bodied for me. I am overwieght. Will I fit through the window? will i risk injury if I fall from height? Would my 3 year old daughter be ok if I dropped her out the window using a matress to soften the blow?.  Would my 80 year old mother in law be able to use a window escape? SHe isnt classed as less abled and is in good nick as  80 year olds go!
I agree with you Clevelandfire but in this case the people are able bodied. I don't like window escapes but many pposters on here will be living in houses designed in accordance with the building regs that rely on emergency egress windows for satisfactory means of escape.

There are many many B&Bs around the UK that were also designed in that way and it would not be reasonably practicable to provide a protected route out.

What do we do? Should they all be put out of business??

Please don't think I'm recommending window escape as the definitive solution, but various solutions will have to be considered that are outside the CLG guides. As many of us know those guides are full of errors anyway and written and coloured in by some strange cow  and horse loving junkies.!

Civvy you really should borrow Midland Retty's "My First Ladybird Book of Fire Law". You don't have to wait for persons to be placed at risk of death or serious injury before you serve a notice. You could use an enforcement notice.

Offline CivvyFSO

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« Reply #31 on: February 29, 2008, 09:07:14 AM »
Quote from: PhilB
Civvy you really should borrow Midland Retty's "My First Ladybird Book of Fire Law". You don't have to wait for persons to be placed at risk of death or serious injury before you serve a notice. You could use an enforcement notice.
How very amusing.

Do you seriously think that I am unaware of the process behind serving an enforcement notice? Was it not made clear in that post that I just may have a reasonable grasp of the RRO?

Midland Retty

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« Reply #32 on: February 29, 2008, 09:48:44 AM »
Quote from: PhilB
Quote from: Clevelandfire
Window escapes are troublesome. The term able bodies is banded around alot. Define the term able bodied for me. I am overwieght. Will I fit through the window? will i risk injury if I fall from height? Would my 3 year old daughter be ok if I dropped her out the window using a matress to soften the blow?.  Would my 80 year old mother in law be able to use a window escape? SHe isnt classed as less abled and is in good nick as  80 year olds go!
I agree with you Clevelandfire but in this case the people are able bodied. I don't like window escapes but many pposters on here will be living in houses designed in accordance with the building regs that rely on emergency egress windows for satisfactory means of escape.

There are many many B&Bs around the UK that were also designed in that way and it would not be reasonably practicable to provide a protected route out.

What do we do? Should they all be put out of business??

Please don't think I'm recommending window escape as the definitive solution, but various solutions will have to be considered that are outside the CLG guides. As many of us know those guides are full of errors anyway and written and coloured in by some strange cow  and horse loving junkies.!

Civvy you really should borrow Midland Retty's "My First Ladybird Book of Fire Law". You don't have to wait for persons to be placed at risk of death or serious injury before you serve a notice. You could use an enforcement notice.
Mr PhilB will you please :-

a) Stop nicking my ladybird books
b) Read Civvyfso's post again and you will see s/he knows what notices are issued and when tut tut.
c) accept our point of view and admit you are wrong :D

Window escapes are acceptable in someone's home to retain "homely atmosphere", save space, cut down on materials used in construction plus not many authorities have jurisidiction to enforce standards in single domestic dwellings anyway so.. .

But yes I do take on board your point that sometimes window escape may be the only option due to the layout of the building not lending itself to any other form of fire precuations.

Offline davio1960

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« Reply #33 on: February 29, 2008, 01:07:38 PM »
My many learned and occasssionally agumentative colleagues.
When the FSO came about did we not salute the central governement for providing us all with ONE set of guidance documents that all clearly state risk assessment, getting rid of that prescriptive stuff about guilty within the FP Act for contraventions and allowing fire officers to ensure all relevent persons are safe.

Why then are different authorities accepting local documents when the chosen few in CENTRAL GOVERNMENT have gone to such vast expense and time and effert in getting some reasonble (note small print) guidance documents.

If your local authority have moved away from the national guidance or not accepted the national guidance in the first instance, is it no wonder this question about jumping through a squar'ish hole in a wall 15 feet above the ground, landing who knows where, and...well its just rubbish, I say again Rubbish standards in the 21st century.

Sir Coroner. I am employed by a FRS and had the enforcement authority placed upon my shoulders to ensure people who are classed as relevent persons were safe and I did nowt! I let these people jump, one at a time, on to the ...railings...parked cars...bins...bottle store...small spikey bushes whilst the remainder persihed in the room above from fire.

Gentlemen refer to the national published guidance document.

Lacors is only draft and currntly only for comment.
Right now on my shelf I have a robust "reasonable" standard national document. Lacors does not recognise the British standards for Fire alarms...but then neither does the national guidance document! But thats for another time.
Ask yourselves where are most people dying or being seriously injured. Then look again at Lacors will it make a difference to life safety or only to landlords pockets!
Its friday aftenoon what are you all still doing at work.....ahhhh money for newer anaraks
Regards to you all
Davio
Regards Davio1960

Midland Retty

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« Reply #34 on: February 29, 2008, 02:15:13 PM »
Quote from: davio1960
My many learned and occasssionally agumentative colleagues.
When the FSO came about did we not salute the central governement for providing us all with ONE set of guidance documents that all clearly state risk assessment, getting rid of that prescriptive stuff about guilty within the FP Act for contraventions and allowing fire officers to ensure all relevent persons are safe.

Why then are different authorities accepting local documents when the chosen few in CENTRAL GOVERNMENT have gone to such vast expense and time and effert in getting some reasonble (note small print) guidance documents.

If your local authority have moved away from the national guidance or not accepted the national guidance in the first instance, is it no wonder this question about jumping through a squar'ish hole in a wall 15 feet above the ground, landing who knows where, and...well its just rubbish, I say again Rubbish standards in the 21st century.

Sir Coroner. I am employed by a FRS and had the enforcement authority placed upon my shoulders to ensure people who are classed as relevent persons were safe and I did nowt! I let these people jump, one at a time, on to the ...railings...parked cars...bins...bottle store...small spikey bushes whilst the remainder persihed in the room above from fire.

Gentlemen refer to the national published guidance document.

Lacors is only draft and currntly only for comment.
Right now on my shelf I have a robust "reasonable" standard national document. Lacors does not recognise the British standards for Fire alarms...but then neither does the national guidance document! But thats for another time.
Ask yourselves where are most people dying or being seriously injured. Then look again at Lacors will it make a difference to life safety or only to landlords pockets!
Its friday aftenoon what are you all still doing at work.....ahhhh money for newer anaraks
Regards to you all
Davio
You can't go round saying things like that on a friday afternoon - it's too much like common sense

Did I hear on the grapevine that things like the HOMESTAMP guide (used in the West Mids) and similar localised guidance around the country will be phased out and replaced by a nationally agreed guidance document relating to Fire Safety in HMOs.

Offline The Colonel

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« Reply #35 on: February 29, 2008, 05:15:01 PM »
Retty

Yes, there is a consultation document doing the rounds from LACOR which I understand has the backing of CFOA

Offline val

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« Reply #36 on: February 29, 2008, 07:17:54 PM »
The cost of producing this document, (wages for author) was shared equally between LACORS, CFOA and CIEH. The production was only managed by LACORS. The consultation period finished today.
Those responses, (I hope you all contributed), will be worked up over the next two months and the document will then, hopefully be badged by every interested stakeholder including landlord's representatives. CLG which covers both fire and housing will be closely involved.
It will not be perfect, nothing ever is, especiaslly in a risk assessment world. Have you any better suggestions.

I seem to remember that the very documents you are supporting were being torn apart twelve months ago.

Offline davio1960

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« Reply #37 on: February 29, 2008, 09:46:13 PM »
Friday afternoon/evening we of the anarak brigade do not require sleep...pass me another double espesso coffee!

Midland Red your local guidance may well be superceded as ours was 18months ago by the current national guidance.

Val the varoius associations you mentioned have supported the theory of the draft document and allowed us minows to comment...and from my area...how we have commented and taken forward our arguments.

I have no doubt that Lacors is a done deal but please lets make sure that people are safe by walking to safety, down stairs and not acting like spider man cos I have yet to see a squirty thing leave anyones lower arm that allows a controlled descent to a perfectly soft and smooth paved area. I only see...well it aint nice and its right outside my comfort zone. We have something like 18,000 HMO in my immiediate area. Thats a lot of "incidents"!

Previously we had a chance to get it right and some people just don't like it.
We can "Take 2" lets get it right this time.

My FRS has certainly made our voice heard nationally through CFOA.
Regards Davio1960
Regards Davio1960

Offline jokar

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« Reply #38 on: February 29, 2008, 09:49:34 PM »
Like all things risk assessed, some want prescription whilst others want to do away with standards to help themselves.  What we all have to ask is what is the risk?  If an a ssessment can prove that there is risk but it is manged then that is all we can ask.  the prohibitive cost of prescriptive fire safety for the sake of a lot of ifs and buts need to be balanced against what can happen.  The assessment should be just that an assessment of the fire risks for a premises type against a published guidance document that is only one method of doing something in a type of premises.  there are many that do not fit the guides and thats where the professional makes a judhement based on the hazards and the risks that ensue from those.  Article 34 is quite exact when it states that the RP has the onus of responsibility in accordance with ALARP.

Offline fuzzy

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« Reply #39 on: February 29, 2008, 10:00:00 PM »
How do the building owners insure themselves? Ie, are they insured as a hotel or hmo?

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #40 on: February 29, 2008, 11:31:38 PM »
Quote from: davio1960
Sir Coroner. I am employed by a FRS and had the enforcement authority placed upon my shoulders to ensure people who are classed as relevent persons were safe and I did nowt! I let these people jump, one at a time, on to the ...railings...parked cars...bins...bottle store...small spikey bushes whilst the remainder persihed in the room above from fire.

Gentlemen refer to the national published guidance document.

Davio
So if I refer to the national published guidance document I will be ok? Regardless if that document has errors or has been written by people with questionable competence?

Competent persons appointed by competent enforcing authorities will hopefully be able to make decisions based on professional judgement and common sense rather than hugging a code.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #41 on: February 29, 2008, 11:39:36 PM »
Quote from: CivvyFSO
How very amusing.

Do you seriously think that I am unaware of the process behind serving an enforcement notice? Was it not made clear in that post that I just may have a reasonable grasp of the RRO?
No Civvy it was not made clear...but that was probably my fault.....no offence was intended. You must remember that I spend my life hugging my Janet & John fire safety books and trying to trip up anyone who may not conform to my prescriptive regime........just for fun!!

But if you need further cuddling let's don our anoraks and start a new thread!!!!

Offline kurnal

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« Reply #42 on: February 29, 2008, 11:46:40 PM »
I do thank you all who have responded to this thread, and am grateful for your comments and advice. I am pleased that there is a spectrum of strongly held views often differing from my own.

Why do I post this type of query on the forum?  I am only too well aware of my own responsibility as a risk assessor and that if any one gets hurt in premises in which I have given advice I will be in the dock alongside the RP.

Some have suggested that I do it to give the local brigade a slating- a them and us situation- honestly nothing could be further from the truth. I was privileged to be a fire service officer for 31 years - it was and remains the best job in the world and I very often wish I was still at the sharp end still working with you guys-  la creme de la creme.

I dont usually post on the forum to seek specific advice on how to deal with a particular premises -  I use it to explore grey areas- and there are many, and to expose and explore inconsistencies in guidance and standards.  In doing this I use examples I come across in my work- but often have to introduce a little poetic licence to fully explore an issue that based on the real life case may be overlooked.

So in truth in this case yes it is currently a small hotel, and all I have done so far is give free advice.
My view is as most of yours- I would not have my mum sleep in a first floor hotel room with a window escape. And I agree fully with the fire officer on this. So I gave three or four seperate options for improvement- all of which were difficult and probably not economically viable for this small business.

But when we considered the persons at risk - and found that more or less  all clients  were able bodied young and fit people on apprentice schemes, and that the windows are all large and easy to open onto a bay window, that storey height is fairly low, and realised that if they were not staying in this rather nice building they could equally be instead in some seedy bedsit in the city centre relying on a window for escape (in accordance with National guidance) I suggested to the owner that they investigate and explore the reclassification from hotel to HMO because they are already  almost in compliance with the latest draft standards published by LACORS currently under consultation.
If it will work for them its an option to consider - otherwise they will need to upgrade the accommodation to hotel standard.

I find the Housing Act a nightmare and the definition of a HMO unclear, and I believe the reason for accepting means of escape via windows in a HMO is purely political expediency. I think that otherwise  by nature of the style of enforcement by Environmental Health Departments  many people would otherwise  be made homeless. I fail to understand why we still accept window exits from the first floor of new dwelling houses though. I posted this thread to seek your views and broaden my understanding of the Housing Legislation and the definition of HMOs- and you have not let me down!

Like all of you I want to reduce risk ALARP in  all premises I work in. And this is where the discussion starts. We do have a legal definition of reasonably practicable and it does involve the balancing of risk, difficulty, cost, upheaval, and sometimes political expediency. I accept also sometimes you do have to say it cant be done- the building is unsuitable for purpose.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #43 on: February 29, 2008, 11:58:14 PM »
Spot on Kurnal...that is what this forum is all about.

No one has all the answers...not even me!!!!....... but if you have a question it's worth posting because there is a wealth of knowlege on here..

......You do have to put up with the ocassional flippent remarks from the likes of Civvy & Retty .......and many others .......but my anorak has sufficient lining to deal with such wipper-snappers!!

What I like most about this site is the opportunity to discuss such a vast subject area......with so many....

.....long may it continue.

Offline Big A

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« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2008, 11:08:55 AM »
It's interesting that CLG now supports national guidance. In the run up to the introduction of the Housing Act both LHAs and others were begging the (then) ODPM to produce some guidance. They flatly refused to do so saying that the RRO guide would be sufficient. One of the effects of the final delay to the Order was that the Housing Act came into effect with LHA officers feeling that there was no guidance whatever. (NB risk assessment/common sense approach to Fire Safety was a completely new concept to many housing officers. We had been getting used to it since 1997). Unsurprisingly a great many LHAs began to produce their own guides, many in consultation with either their local FRS or consultants.
My concern is that this new national guidance is far too late and will not be adopted by most.