Fire extinguishers in Residentail apartments

[nearlythere]

Just to carry on the debate. I carried out some FRA's in common areas of some small basic blocks of flats sometime ago for a management company. These were then passed through to the relevant tenant's committee. One chairman questioned the recommendations constantly for two months. There was nothing provided whatsoever within the common areas - no form of AFD of manual call points, emergency lighting, extinguishers etc. About a week after we cleared up all the questions they had a fire!! Luckily no one was injured but after that event the issues were taken more seriously by the commitee. Personally I am a supporter of extinguishers in common areas - depending on the individual premises.

Fire precautions yes (AFD, Call Points Fire doors Emergency Lighting)

Fire Extinguishers a no no unless trained.

Where was the actual fire in the building?

[Big T]

Why were there recommendations to install AFD, Call points and emergency lighting? Size or type of risk? I agree with Wee Brian that the law and guidance on istalling extinguishers in resi buildings is not clear and from experience fire extinguishers in residential accomodation is rarely used to fight fire, normally used as something to hit someone with or something to sell or make a mess with. It is desireable, but not in a building where vandalism is likely. I am always dismayed when I walk into residential buildings and see an array of fire safety equipment. Whats the point?

[Jason Miller]

From the other point of view, extinguishers are for small fires and there are quite a few small fires. Enough for figures to show that extinguishers put out around 80% of fires without the user calling the Fire Service - ongoing surveys where refills are required from FETA and IFEDA over the past umpteen years.

For cost, an extinguisher per floor would cost around £30 (from internet) and the annual maintenance for two three would be around £30 which I'm sure can be swallowed in the flat's maintenance budget. At that cost, what's the big deal? If they are being made to pay the normal £100+ for them, then that's a different matter.

As for training, whilst I'd love everyone to be trained to use extinguishers, again, what's difficult in pulling out an obvious pin and pointing a hose? I wasn't trained to bring up kids but managed with two and that was much harder than using a fire extinguisher.

We know that there is a danger of wrong extinguisher on wrong fire, such as water on electrics but can anyone provide a list of people who have been electrocuted using a water extinguisher on a normal electrical device or who have been killed using an extinguisher in recent years?

Vandalism and use as a weapon is unlikely to occur in a secure apartment block and many things can be used as a weapon anyway.

So, what's the problem in providing some first aid fire fighting equipment? It's like a first aid kit being no substitute for a paramedic but we all have them for "first aid".

I still agree with the need to evacuate and be safe but not all fires are serious...at first.

Jason

[wee brian]

Hi FPO - its not so much that they are a bad thing, the question is wheter they should be required by law?

If they are then it raises all sorts of difficult questions (such as training).


£30 for something I may never use is actually quite a lot. How many do you have in your house?

[Big T]

I think when you consider that under the RRO you are responsible for risk assessing the communal areas, when you look at it fire extinguishers are covering a risk that doesn't exist. If you had an empty concrete box in a field you wouldn't need a fire extinguisher in it to make it safe.

The communal areas are fire resistant and sterile (excluding imported risk outside the FRA process) Fire alarms are not required in the communal areas (due to the lack of risk, unless installed to cover a specific risk in the landlords communal areas) so why should a landlord provide extuinguishers to cover somebody elses risk? Residents should buy there own extinguisher to cover there own risk. A fire in an individual flat would devastate the contents of the flat and smoke damage the corridoor, all other flats will be unharmed.

[Psuedonym]

Ok so if your not trained they should be removed. Is that right? Er..I'll just nip out to let my local shops etc aware then. Right ...Garages, Supermarkets, Churches, Schools etc etc,.......

As for vandalism or weapons. Iv'e serviced thousands and heard of vandalism twice. Both large town centre pubs in front of house (bloody stupid siting). It's a good selling point: fear and potential.

Incorrect for type of fire? What happened to assessing and fit for use?

Non trained personnel? Looks like The European Directives really were a waste of time then. Who needs logos and the written word if you have to be trained first anyway. That was the point of EN3.

[Big T]

Psuedonym

In one residential block which houses 50 tennants which I am responsible for which was wrongly classified as a HMO (prior to building start originally had areas which would share facilites, this qwas changed last minute) Had extinguishers installed in it. The extinguisher recharge bill was enourmous due to consistant vandalism and missuse, approximately 15 refills a month and 2-5 replacements). After speaking to the local Fire services fire safety team we removed the extinguishers as their was no requirement to provide them.

The uses you list have a requirement to provide and a requirement to train relevant people to use them, shops, churches, schools etc. Residential blocks do not and to be totally honest rarely employ anybody at these buildings

[Wyvern]

Re debate on provision of fire extinguishers in community areas.
It appears to me that those who are adamant that extinguishers should not be provided (for any reason) do not live in the real world, they need to travel to other countries worldwide and see how advanced they are in addressing these areas ( China, Japan, USA, Sweden as examples) There you will find a combination of extinguishers, first aid hosereels and fire service delivery hose. Vandals are severely dealt with, so they don't have problems with duff equipment. Insurance fire offices know what they are talking about and they understand risk. Insurance companies were in business before public Fire Brigades were formed. Their Fire suveyors are highly skilled and are not professionally arrogant and ignorant like at least one of the contributers to this debate appears to be and has probally been no where and done nothing. Fire extinguishers must be provided everywhere, we live in a dangerous world, but of course before one specifies the provision of extinguishers they themselves, must have expert knowledge of " First Aid Fire Appliances" My experience tells me that "Professionally Arrogant And Ignorant" People don't.

[jokar]

Wyvern,
I think you may have missed the point.  To build in England and Wales you have to meet the functional requirement of the Builidng Regulations which is for means of escape and detection and warning only.  Premises in the main are then build with a fire strategy which physically protects the means of escape in sterile areas where a fire should not start unless Arson.  If individual wish to purchase extinguishers for use in their own homes that is their right.  Our British Standard 5588 Part 1 specifically mentions that extinguishers should not be provided.
As regards commercila premises hose reels were only provided for use by local FRS and then never used, the LDSA and many other local authorities have agreed that they are now not necessary and are not provided or are removed.  As for hose provision, in many countries around the world, I have seen flaked hose in cabinets which will still retain that shape when removed from the cabinet as they have not seen the light of days since they were installed.

[nearlythere]

Re debate on provision of fire extinguishers in community areas.
It appears to me that those who are adamant that extinguishers should not be provided (for any reason) do not live in the real world, they need to travel to other countries worldwide and see how advanced they are in addressing these areas ( China, Japan, USA, Sweden as examples) There you will find a combination of extinguishers, first aid hosereels and fire service delivery hose. Vandals are severely dealt with, so they don't have problems with duff equipment. Insurance fire offices know what they are talking about and they understand risk. Insurance companies were in business before public Fire Brigades were formed. Their Fire suveyors are highly skilled and are not professionally arrogant and ignorant like at least one of the contributers to this debate appears to be and has probally been no where and done nothing. Fire extinguishers must be provided everywhere, we live in a dangerous world, but of course before one specifies the provision of extinguishers they themselves, must have expert knowledge of " First Aid Fire Appliances" My experience tells me that "Professionally Arrogant And Ignorant" People don't.

Wyvern

Two points.

1- You have covered a very important point when you say

"It appears to me that those who are adamant that extinguishers should not be provided (for any reason) do not live in the real world, they need to travel to other countries worldwide and see how advanced they are in addressing these areas ( China, Japan, USA, Sweden as examples) There you will find a combination of extinguishers, first aid hosereels and fire service delivery hose."
"Vandals are severely dealt with, so they don't have problems with duff equipment."

Unfortunately in this country, which is part of the real world, vandals are not severely dealt so we will have a problem with duff equipment.

2- "Fire extinguishers must be provided everywhere, we live in a dangerous world......"

What sort of extinguisher would you recommend be placed in a block built store with a tin roof used for storing milk bottles in metal crates and why?

[nearlythere]

Am I starting to get crankie?

[Galeon]

Have a few beers , things seem to get better then, well it does it for me.

[nearlythere]

So I am starting to get crankie then. Where's the beer?

[Big T]

Nearlythere, Don't worry about being cranky. I had to throw my computer out of the window and then go and buy another after reading that post, hence the late reply

Arrogant and ignorant? that'll be me then Wyvern! In all fairness I think i'd know a bit about provision of extinguishers in the communal areas of accomodation blocks. And the fact that are regularly discharged, stolen, damaged, moved, thrown out of windows etc. Now I may not be 700 years old but I disagree I have "probally been no where and done nothing" (great grammar and spelling by the way)

There is a huge misunderstanding of the few guides available to the housing sector but I know them well. Well enough to know that fire extinguishers are not a requirement in the communal areas of blocks of flats, unless to cover a specific risk.

If a 17 storey single staircase block doesn't need them, then no block does.

Come on Nearly and Galeon Lets go and find Kurnal at the bar. Matrons turned my internet off again.

[colin todd]

I have been to America. I found that the people there thought that Scotland was a suburb of Paris and they voted for someone educationally sub-normal as their President. They seem nice people otherwise, but not the people from whom I would tend to take advice on the need for fire extinguishers in blocks of flats. Meantime, I think BigT has it right. Is it too late for him to stand against Obama? All this dangerous world talk is scaring me, so I am off to my bunker now.  PS I like the American approach to law enforcement, whereby the policemen shoot people dead and then check if they had vandalised a fire extringuisher. Give a few more Met  officers guns, and that will soon stop all this vandalising of fire extinguishers in blocks of flats in the (English) capital.