Author Topic: BS 5839 Part 6  (Read 10244 times)

Midland Retty

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BS 5839 Part 6
« on: March 04, 2008, 12:58:33 PM »
I understand Colin Todd has published guidance about part six detection systems  to BS 5839

Has anyone seen it / read it?

Ive been told by one of my punters that colin's guide recommends against having alarms in common areas for flats an maisonettes.

I can understand that if the flats / masiontettes have been built to current building reg standards, but the punter stated the guide suggested that alarms should not be provided in common areas at all, full stop

The theory being that if a fire started in a flat and the front door was left open, the smoke would hit a detector in the common area, activate the common fire alarm system forcing people to evacuate right into a smoke logged corridor

Is it me but doesn't that just doesn't sit well

Youir thoughts please, has the punter misquoted Mr Toddddddds guide?

Offline William 29

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BS 5839 Part 6
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2008, 03:56:16 PM »
Below is direct from BS 5839 part 6  - applies to the individual dwellings, from my notes Mr Todd's guidance does say that detection should not be provided in the common areas, but I can't recall if this is under all circumstances i.e. if the compartmentation of the individual dwellings can not be guaranteed.


1 Scope
This part of BS 5839 gives recommendations for the planning, design and installation of fire detection and
fire alarm systems in dwellings and dwelling units that are designed to accommodate a single family, and
in houses in multiple occupation that comprise a number of self-contained units each designed to
accommodate a single family. The recommendations apply to both new dwellings and existing dwellings.
Recommendations for routine attention are also given.
The systems covered in this part of BS 5839 range from those comprising a single self-contained smoke
alarm to systems of the type described in BS 5839-1. The recommendations of this part of BS 5839 may also
be applied to the fire detection components of combined domestic fire and intruder alarm systems or fire
and social alarm systems.
This part of BS 5839 applies to forms of dwelling including bungalows, multi-storey houses, individual flats
and maisonettes, mobile homes, sheltered houses, housing providing NHS supported living in the
community (as defined in Health Technical Memorandum 88 [1]), mansions, and houses divided into
several self-contained single-family dwelling units. It does not apply to hostels, caravans or boats
(other than permanently moored boats used solely as residential premises), or to the communal parts of
purpose-built sheltered housing and blocks of flats or maisonettes. It does not apply to any premises used
for purposes other than as a dwelling (e.g. small shops, factories or similar premises used solely as places
of work).

Offline The Colonel

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BS 5839 Part 6
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2008, 04:01:44 PM »
Midland have a look at the Sleeping Guide which covers common areas of flats etc Page 55 gives a table of suggested AFD and under flats/maisonetes note 4 gives guidance as per Mr. T in that if constructed to building regs then AFD should not be required in common areas. Self contained alarms should be in the flats.

If flats etc are purpose built to one to the current or previous building regs then fire compartmentation should be good and not require afd. However if the buildings are conversions and standards are unclear then I believe AFD should be recommended and I have done so if the situation requires it. Its all down to each individual building.

Midland Retty

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BS 5839 Part 6
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2008, 04:40:00 PM »
thanks for the replies guys

Im not trying to question colin todd, I have a lot of time for his experience and advice rearding fire safety

But the punter is saying that his guide says "no alarm in common areas under any circumstances"

I accept now common fire alarm system is required in flats masionettes built to current building regs, but does Mr Todd's guide say no common fire alarm is required in flats masionettes not built to current building standards

Can anyway confirm if thats correct or where i could get a copy of the guide as Ive gogoled it but nowt is coming up

If a fire started in a flat and the front door was left open, the smoke would hit a detector in the common area, activate the common fire alarm system, unaffected flats would begin to evacuate straight into the smoke logged corridor caused by the door being left open

That doesn't sound right to me (but thats just my opinion what do you guys think?)


Cheers

Graeme

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BS 5839 Part 6
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2008, 05:08:23 PM »

Offline Tom Sutton

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All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline Ricardo

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BS 5839 Part 6
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2008, 07:57:25 PM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
Im not trying to question colin todd, I have a lot of time for his experience and advice rearding fire safety
But the punter is saying that his guide says "no alarm in common areas under any circumstances"

I accept now common fire alarm system is required in flats masionettes built to current building regs, but does Mr Todd's guide say no common fire alarm is required in flats masionettes not built to current building standards

Can anyway confirm if thats correct or where i could get a copy of the guide as Ive gogoled it but nowt is coming up

If a fire started in a flat and the front door was left open, the smoke would hit a detector in the common area, activate the common fire alarm system, unaffected flats would begin to evacuate straight into the smoke logged corridor caused by the door being left open
That doesn't sound right to me (but thats just my opinion what do you guys think?)
Cheers
Midland Retty, did you ever get your answer the your question?

i quote from Colins guide, "individual flats,maisonettes & sheltered houses, Where I quote the word"individual" it should be noted that this word does not actually appear in the code. I have used the word to emphasize that, in the case of flats, maisonettes, and units of sheltered hosuing, the code makes it quite clear  that its recommendations only apply to the individual dwelling units and not any common parts. This is because, in the case of new blocks of flats,maisonettes and sheltered houses, compliance with building regs generally necessitates that each dwelling unit is constructed as a FR enclosure.
The implications of this are that, in the event of a fire in, say a single flat within a block of flats, every other flat should usually be a  place of relative safety, and complete evacuation of the block will not normally be necessary, even if, when the door of the flat with the fire is opened, some smoke enters the common escape rotes, the escape routes themselves should of course be sterile.

Colin goes on to add, therefore fire detection systems is not normally installed throughout the common areas of flats etc, , indeed a communual fire alarm system in a block of flats can actually result in a certain amount of danger to occupants, by causing unnecessary evacuation, perhaps in the case of an actual fire, into a smoke filled corridor or staircase.

He finishes saying that the code does not specifically recommend against such an installation, in the common parts, but that it is excluded from its scope.

Offline kurnal

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BS 5839 Part 6
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 08:48:00 PM »
Quote from: Ricardo
He finishes saying that the code does not specifically recommend against such an installation, in the common parts, but that it is excluded from its scope.
Well said Ricardo. You have it in one.  


Quote from: Midland retty
I can understand that if the flats / masiontettes have been built to current building reg standards, but the punter stated the guide suggested that alarms should not be provided in common areas at all, full stop

The theory being that if a fire started in a flat and the front door was left open, the smoke would hit a detector in the common area, activate the common fire alarm system forcing people to evacuate right into a smoke logged corridor

Is it me but doesn't that just doesn't sit well
I agree with you as well Midland- indeed if that dodgy argument  were to be followed to its conclusion there would be no LD3 systems in dwellings. L5 systems to cover inner rooms or L4 systems either. The point being that the detectors will operate long before the route becomes untenable and giving people warning early enough to make a safe escape.

I have just completed a risk assessment in a 55m high single staircase tower block built in  about 1960 with no ventilation to  common lobby, low standards of fire resistance to stairs and between flats and the common lobby. The recommendations include a LD3 at each floor level with smoke detection in the common lobby and heat in each flat, seperate systems on each floor, so that on each floor level if one flat has a fire we will alert other occupiers on the same floor only. That way we have a chance of them taking notice of the alarm.

Offline Ashley Wood

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BS 5839 Part 6
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 02:04:18 PM »
I have assessed hundreds upon hundreds of common areas. Out of all the flats most do not have FD30 fire doors to the entrance. They think they do but they have a hole called a letter box cut in them! Also, the amount of common areas where I have found waste and old furniture stacked up on landings is incredible, ideal for an arsonist. There have very recently been several arson attacks in blocks of flats where waste and furniture has been set alight. I always recommend detection regardless of the level of construction.

Midland Retty

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BS 5839 Part 6
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2008, 03:38:30 PM »
Quote from: Ricardo
Midland Retty, did you ever get your answer the your question?
Sorry didn't see you question til today - wasn't being ignorant promise :-)

No I never got answer...until now

Cheers for that Ricardo!

Quote from: Kurnal
I agree with you as well Midland- indeed if that dodgy argument  were to be followed to its conclusion there would be no LD3 systems in dwellings.
Quite Prof quite which is why I questioned it in the first place (the claim that Colin had made written that kind of stuff into his guides etc)