Author Topic: Disability Discrimination Act and hotel / Hostel acommodation  (Read 23852 times)

Offline Wiz

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Disability Discrimination Act and hotel / Hostel acommodation
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2008, 09:46:15 PM »
Val, I agree with everything you say.
If it's 1 in 6 that have disabilities then at least 1 in 6 rooms in 'my' hotel would have appropriate facilities. But not every room. This is even if the 'DDA police' say disabled people might want to choose any room just because non-disabled people have that choice. I couldn't afford to convert every room and I believe I only have to make 'reasonable' adjustments.
Disabled people have now been given some 'sensible' rights through the DDA. It's important that we don't allow the 'DDA police' to spoil the idea of treating disabled people equally by demanding and forcing money to be spent on unreasonable adjustments. Ultimately, we all have to pay for these adjustments and I fear the disabled might eventually suffer if the general public feel that they are having to pay for something that is not actually necessary.

Offline redbadge

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Disability Discrimination Act and hotel / Hostel acommodation
« Reply #16 on: March 07, 2008, 10:00:36 AM »
My particular favourite inclusion within interpretation of DDA is those fantastic pimply bits of pavement at road crossings which get slippy when it's frosty and cause untold damaged to your buttocks when you land on your backside because of them.

Sorry - nothing to do with fire but I had to get that off my chest!

Offline jokar

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« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2008, 10:01:19 AM »
The clenched fist parts and others come from the Inclusive design scenarios in part M to the Building Regulations.  I agree with Val in that to ensure that all can evacuate where required then all new builds should include the provision of an evac lift in preference to a normal passenger lift.  Have a read of the articles published in the IFE journal some months back.

Offline AnthonyB

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Disability Discrimination Act and hotel / Hostel acommodation
« Reply #18 on: March 07, 2008, 10:02:56 AM »
The two big chains of Motel type accommodation in the UK place disabled rooms to ground level close to the staffed reception. They always have, have hundreds of premises and no-one has objected.

DDA is a pain in the rear because it is often over analysed and results in disproportionate works & millions have been spent in buildings across the UK where there is actually only really a 1 or 2% chance of there ever being a disabled person using it - it will remain a fact that most of the working population are reasonably able.

Fear of DDA legal action has led to buildings that could never be adapted for emergency egress without knocking the place down and starting again being made accessible in normal conditions increasing the risk to persons.

As far as a hotel would be concerned surely you would look at it like this;
Service provided: Overnight sleeping accommodation with restaurant facilities
Adjustment required: a proportion of adapted rooms to allow the above service to be offered

So by adapting ground floor rooms you have taken reasonable adjustments to offer the service - it doesn't matter that they are all to ground as the hotel is meeting its obligation by providing overnight accommodation.

You don't normally get to choose your room anyway and most hotels are just places to sleep & eat, so it doesn't matter where you are - to paraphrase Basil Fawlty what do you expect to see - 'the hanging gardens of Babylon? herds of wildebeest sweeping majestically across the plain?'
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Offline redbadge

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« Reply #19 on: March 07, 2008, 10:06:30 AM »
I was "lucky" enough to get a consultation copy of part M, that was even worse than the version that got published.

If anyone wants a more friendly document Manchester City Council have an online pdf file outlining their interpretation of Doc M

Offline Donna

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« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2008, 11:17:59 AM »
Hi to all, Sorry I have come in on this one a little late,
Firstly the DDA is good in principle, but factually (and this is my own personal views) c*ap, (PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR THIS!)
This is why the DRC (Disability Rights Commission) is now been technically disbanded! (from Oct 07) and now all disability issues are covered by basic human right's (which is more politically correct, as the word "disabled" immediateley catagorises one in the first instance)
Right The "said" Hotel, is sort of in a Dammed if they do, Dammed if they dont, senario, as they are "appearing" to comply with what society would want them to do, and as,
Jokar Quoted, (something like) "If I were suffering from a disability......I would like a room with a view!" (sorry I cant work out how to transfer ones text here)
I say Quite right too!, but if the "said" hotel would think a human with mobility issues would be satisfied with the knowledge that if there was a fire, then they would have to "manhandled out, down stairs (possibly causing someone to FIT!) WITHOUT their £6,000 powerchair, (so they would then have to be put into a chair that would need some other poor soul to push them for the duration)
Then they can get stuffed ! what planet are they on!

I am writing this, taking for granted that the reference of "evacuation" lifts are the lifts that one CAN use in the event of a fire, (sorry I do not have the technical information)
The hotel should not consider to build a room on each floor if they are not intending to supply an evacuation lift! If they have the money to build a hotel (their business plan would already establish that it would be a goldmine) they they should make the decision to install one or even two evacuation lifts!

Now, talking about the thousands of different "health or mobility related" problems out there, that lots of humans suffer from, it is a minefield!
For instance, You could have a person, that is a wheelchair user, that is 100% entitled to use a wheelchair for genuine bonafide reasons, Just for instance they need it for 90% of daytime/out and about use, they possibly would be quietly confident that IN AN EMERGENCY (if push comes to shove) they they might actually be able, with help from another,  (with in no doubt, emense difficulty) WALK down the stairs!
Then there is someone that would NOT be able to get out of their chair as it might cause them such bad effect, it would be a danger to anyone trying to help them out, eg; having a FIT (ever tried to try and lift or help anyone having a fit) !!!!!

As for "reasonable ajustments" under the DDA, this is what cheap skate's think would cover them legally, (but really if they gave the matter decent genuine thought, they should decide to do a Disabled accessible rooms on all floors with the, possible 2 evacuation lifts)
OR
All the Disabled accomodation on the one floor!
If they are adamant on the hotel having 10 floors with Disabled accomodation, with just stairs, then they really are "appearing to be offering disabled persons, the choice, that would cover them with reasonable adjustment, and discrimination laws" but in reality they want to cut corners, you could say, pardon the pun, "putting up a smoke screen"

Offline redbadge

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Disability Discrimination Act and hotel / Hostel acommodation
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2008, 11:39:04 AM »
Crikey - thought I was grumpy!!!

Offline Donna

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« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2008, 11:44:08 AM »
Ha Ha, Oh Im definately not grumpy, Dont do grumpy. Just tried to state things as factually as I could :)

Offline redbadge

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« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2008, 11:46:12 AM »
Quote from: Donna
Ha Ha, Oh Im definately not grumpy, Dont do grumpy. Just tried to state things as factually as I could :)
only teasing!

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« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2008, 01:07:11 PM »
Whilst we are (or should be) convinced about putting in evac lifts in a new build, what about in a hotel newly acquired as opposed to a hostel type situation?
Using Kurnal's original question, converting an ordinary lift could cost say £80K. To a large hotel using cost benefit analysis, they would get a return in say three years, extra couple of nicker on the rates.
To a hostel, say 20 quid a night all in, could the cost could be described as disproportionate? Especially if they are unable to increase rates to cover the expense for whatever reason
I once saw a book called A short Guide to the Building Regs, it had nearly 600 pages.
Perhaps there is one out there for DDA?

Offline jokar

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« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2008, 02:33:56 PM »
There is, it is a few words.  "be inclusive and be reasonable"

Offline Dragonmaster

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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2008, 02:36:02 PM »
Donna - if you want to quote text, click on 'Quote' at the bottom right of the post (in blue) then just start typing (took me 2 months to work that one out!).
"Never do today what will become someone's else's responsibility tomorrow"

messy

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Disability Discrimination Act and hotel / Hostel acommodation
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2008, 03:35:51 PM »
What about ASET and RSET?

In Kurnal's example, the worst possible scenario would be 10 wheelchair users (and perhaps partner/helper) in the building. A reasonable enough challenge when evacuating from one floor.

But to spread them across the entire building seems to be adding unecessary and unreasonable difficulties to the emergency plan. Significant numbers of Hotel staff would be required to supervise a simultaneous evacuation. Even with an evac lift, the time taken to call at every floor would perhaps be longer than would be suitable.

To promote DDA type fairness and a safe system of evacuation, why not group DDA rooms together? - Say 4 on the 8th and 6 on the ground floor.

 Using that method, there is a choice of floors (views) for the punters and a workable evacuation plan for the management = Everyone's happy (aren't they?)

Offline Donna

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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2008, 04:39:26 PM »
Quote from: Dragonmaster
Donna - if you want to quote text, click on 'Quote' at the bottom right of the post (in blue) then just start typing (took me 2 months to work that one out!).
Bingo! I learn something new everyday,
Cheers Dragonmaster,

Offline Donna

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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2008, 05:07:34 PM »
Quote from: Davo
Whilst we are (or should be) convinced about putting in evac lifts in a new build, what about in a hotel newly acquired as opposed to a hostel type situation?
Using Kurnal's original question, converting an ordinary lift could cost say £80K. To a large hotel using cost benefit analysis, they would get a return in say three years, extra couple of nicker on the rates.
To a hostel, say 20 quid a night all in, could the cost could be described as disproportionate? Especially if they are unable to increase rates to cover the expense for whatever reason
I once saw a book called A short Guide to the Building Regs, it had nearly 600 pages.
Perhaps there is one out there for DDA?
Firstly I hope all that read my post would understand that I was making a reference to a hypothetical New Build, whereas they Hotellier could afford it in the onset, and would reap the benefits in the long term...Yes they should have an evacuation lift/lifts!
Please remember that If someone is going into the planning of these specially adaped rooms, then they already know that each room would HAVE to have an Specially adapted wheelchair accessible Toilet and bathroom, wheras some would HAVE to have low level showers for the person with the difficulties, but ALSO would HAVE to have some of their rooms with either large baths with hoists for persons that have some certain Neurological conditions that cannot tollerate the falling of showered water on them!
(Now as this would be a well thought out business venture, a person with difficulties would need to know they had different style bathroom/toilets as this is a must, bearing in mind that if one goes to a hotel, they would expect this as standard, as it it regarded as a luxury stay from home)

But you now mention Hostels of £20 a night, there is no point them offering a room to people with difficulties (which we Know they MUST cater for) if they are expecting NOT to have a self contained separate Toilet/bathroom facilities as these go hand in hand with any adapted room, so is they had (say) three specially adapted rooms, then they would HAVE to have three Private adjoining bathrooms,  and the reality is, that they are not going to be able to afford that! for £20 a night accomodation, but the fact is, any overnight stay for a person that is a wheelchair user HAS to have a Toilet/Bathroom for their sole use!

So for a Hostel offering budget accomodation, then One adapted ground floor room with one adjoining adapted toilet/bathing room, would be "reasonable" but if they had NO room because they could not afford the rather large expense of the bathroom/Toilet that they would need to be compliant, then personally, I would not intend holding them to the law as that WOULD be "UNREASONABLE"
You cant have one without the other,