Protection for Village Hall

[stevfire2]

My wife works at a pre-school in a village hall whose fire extinguishers are serviced by Nu-Swift. They are not the owners, it is sub-let off the village hall committee.  I am concerned as before Christmas the powder extinguisher in the main hall was accidentally let off.  Nu-Swift duly came and took it away.  It is still away!  No replacement has been provided - "he didn't have anything to replace it with".

I do not think that 2kg dry powder has a sufficient fire rating to provide legitimate cover.  It would also appear that the remaining ad-hoc extinguishers are hidden behind sliding doors (unmarked) and are of a multitude of types/vintage.  The playgroup has proposed to purchase their own extinguisher to be available during their use of this facility, however I do not believe that this would make the WHOLE building safe as required.  It is not the fault of the various lessees that I believe this building fails to achieve a safe standard, but is it equally as bad to use it knowing it is likely to be unsafe in the eyes of the law?

Could somebody please recommend an easy to use website with regard to what should be provided and where it must be placed.  

I have proposed and have in place an arrangement to have the building spot inspected through friends in the LAFB but wish to take all reasonable steps first as I do not wish the community to lose a valued facility.  However, if the operation is grossly deficient I shall have no hesitation in reporting it.  I just wish to be sure of my ground before I take action.

[nearlythere]

My wife works at a pre-school in a village hall whose fire extinguishers are serviced by Nu-Swift. They are not the owners, it is sub-let off the village hall committee.  I am concerned as before Christmas the powder extinguisher in the main hall was accidentally let off.  Nu-Swift duly came and took it away.  It is still away!  No replacement has been provided - "he didn't have anything to replace it with".

I do not think that 2kg dry powder has a sufficient fire rating to provide legitimate cover.  It would also appear that the remaining ad-hoc extinguishers are hidden behind sliding doors (unmarked) and are of a multitude of types/vintage.  The playgroup has proposed to purchase their own extinguisher to be available during their use of this facility, however I do not believe that this would make the WHOLE building safe as required.  It is not the fault of the various lessees that I believe this building fails to achieve a safe standard, but is it equally as bad to use it knowing it is likely to be unsafe in the eyes of the law?

Could somebody please recommend an easy to use website with regard to what should be provided and where it must be placed.  

I have proposed and have in place an arrangement to have the building spot inspected through friends in the LAFB but wish to take all reasonable steps first as I do not wish the community to lose a valued facility.  However, if the operation is grossly deficient I shall have no hesitation in reporting it.  I just wish to be sure of my ground before I take action.

Firstly, anyone who recommended or placed a DP extinguisher in a clean environment needs examined.
Secondly, the extinguishing media should be appropriate for the risk. A rule of thumb is 2 water extinguishers for the first 210 SqM and one for every 210SqM thereafter.  Usually you are looking at one water at each final exit, except a kitchen, and one at each storey exit. A co2 at the mains electrical intake. A Co2 to cover other electrical risks if not near to the electrical intake one. A fire blanket, a CO2. and a Class F Foam  (if deep fat fryer) in kitchen. DP or Foam plus a bucket of dry sand in the boiler room and unless there is something specific, that should do. Extinguishers are best not placed near to risks where thetr use could be dangerous. eg water next to main electrial intake. Thats if extinguishers are needed at all.
Extinguishers are not there to assist the means of escape. They are there so that someone can tackle the fire , only if they want to.

[CivvyFSO]

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/pdf/144821

Page 55 of the document. (Page 57 of the PDF file)

Basically; Supply 1 x 13A rated extinguisher per 200m² of floorspace. Generally looking at a minimum of 2 per floor. (1 can be acceptable in certain circumstances.) Then add extinguishers for specific risks. (In a village hall powder should just about cover all remaining risks) Place them by the exits ideally on a bracket on a wall. To be honest, as a fire safety inspector, due to the nature of the group I would be more concerned with the procedures the ensure everyone is out safely rather than counting the fire extinguishers.

>>is it equally as bad to use it knowing it is likely to be unsafe in the eyes of the law?<<

Without trying to get too deep into the legislation, responsible persons etc...

Whoever runs the pre-school has their own responsibility as they are probably in control of the premises to a certain extent. To be honest, the persons renting the hall out to the group could easily rent it out with no extinguishers in place at all. You only need to look at the average office/factory/shop rental agreement. The landlord almost never supplies fire fighting equipment.

[CivvyFSO]

A co2 at the mains electrical intake. A Co2 to cover other electrical risks if not near to the electrical intake one. A fire blanket, a CO2. and a Class F Foam  (if deep fat fryer) in kitchen. DP or Foam plus a bucket of dry sand in the boiler room and unless there is something specific, that should do.

Christ. Are you after a job with chubb?

[stevfire2]

I quite agree that the first thing to do would be to get everyone out but under ofsted regulations they need adequate fire protection and training and I'm sure the village hall would appreciate somebody trying to put it out (if possible) before the LA get there.  As the village hall have a contract with Nu-Swift should it not be down to them to provide the media and not the pre-school.  If the pre-school had their own equipment are they within their rights to lock it away when they are not there?

[John Webb]

The RR(FS)O and the guidence notes on assembly buildings are quite clear. The owners of the building should have a 'Responsible Person' who oversees the fire safety in the building, ensures that the extinguishers, fire exits, any alarm system (if their FRA shows one is needed) and any emergency lighting provided is kept in good order. The hirers, such as the pre-school group or even casual ones for a party, are legally responsible for their safety and that of their staff and visitors while they occupy the building, and need to be told in their contract of hire what fire precautions have been taken and their legal responsibility.
Regular hirers should appoint their own 'RP' to liaise with the owner's 'RP' and to arrange their own FRA in the the light of how they use the building.
Casual hirers could be be given a quick run through* the provided equipment, escape routes and what to do in case of fire by the person who lets them into the building.

Ofsted will require the pre-school group to ask for annual letters or copies of certificates from the owners regarding extinguisher and alarm system maintenance being carried out.

Regarding extinguishers, I have the following views:
NO dry powder - there are few risks in a village hall which warrent one. And the clearing-up afterwards is dreadful. The Ecclesiastical Insurance Office have asked all churches and church halls they insure to withdraw DP extinguishers following vandalism in a church where one DP was discharged, because they are having to pay out around £0.25M just to clean up the church interior (and the organ) to prevent long-term damage to stonework etc.
Kitchens: NO extinguisher in the kitchen other than a fire blanket. I've seen and heard of a number of examples where people have enthusiastically charged in with a CO2, stood too close to the fire and blasted burning fat or the like all over the place. Most hall kitchens are relatively small. Also ban deep-fat frying and insist on oven-bake chips etc - far safer!

*At my own church, for the casual hirers of the hall, we have an A5 sized check-list printed on one side which lists the following points:
Keep external entrance clear in case of emergency
Fire Alarm is in operating order
The passageway to be kept clear
The emergency lighting is in operating order and exit signs to be left on.
Hall fire exit to be kept clear.
No deep-fat frying in kitchen and location of fire blanket.
The hirer and whoever lets them in (usually me) both sign the bottom of the list to acknowledge they been told what to do.

On the reverse in clear large bold lettering is 'What to do in case of Fire', the address to give the emergency services, and further contact details for contacting the Vicar and other church officers. This card is left on display in the kitchen, and collected and filed away when the hirer departs.

Hope this is of help.

[kurnal]

DP or Foam plus a bucket of dry sand in the boiler room and unless there is something specific, that should do. Extinguishers are best not placed near to risks where thetr use could be dangerous. eg water next to main electrial intake. Thats if extinguishers are needed at all.
Extinguishers are not there to assist the means of escape. They are there so that someone can tackle the fire , only if they want to.

Nearlythere with the greatest of respect- why the sand bucket? I can see the benefit if its an oil fired boiler to soak up spillage- is this what you had in mind? Or am I missing something?

Stevfire2- if as you say the village hall have a contract for maintenance and supply of fire fiighting equipment then the best advice you could give them is to test the market and regularly! Theres some outrageous pricing out there - like everything else if you are loyal you can and will be taken for a ride. This is just general advice by the way- not aimed at any individual company.

[nearlythere]

DP or Foam plus a bucket of dry sand in the boiler room and unless there is something specific, that should do. Extinguishers are best not placed near to risks where thetr use could be dangerous. eg water next to main electrial intake. Thats if extinguishers are needed at all.
Extinguishers are not there to assist the means of escape. They are there so that someone can tackle the fire , only if they want to.

Nearlythere with the greatest of respect- why the sand bucket? I can see the benefit if its an oil fired boiler to soak up spillage- is this what you had in mind? Or am I missing something?

Yes. For spillage and running oil. The absorbant granules one can get for oil spills in garages is pretty good.

[nearlythere]

A co2 at the mains electrical intake. A Co2 to cover other electrical risks if not near to the electrical intake one. A fire blanket, a CO2. and a Class F Foam  (if deep fat fryer) in kitchen. DP or Foam plus a bucket of dry sand in the boiler room and unless there is something specific, that should do.

Christ. Are you after a job with chubb?

No. Just giving an opinion based on my experience. If the punter does not want to go with the advise thats their choice.

[Paul2886]

A co2 at the mains electrical intake. A Co2 to cover other electrical risks if not near to the electrical intake one. A fire blanket, a CO2. and a Class F Foam  (if deep fat fryer) in kitchen. DP or Foam plus a bucket of dry sand in the boiler room and unless there is something specific, that should do.

Christ. Are you after a job with chubb?

No. Just giving an opinion based on my experience. If the punter does not want to go with the advise thats their choice.

Don't forget the sprinklers and a drencher system. Might as well go the whole hog here

[AnthonyB]

With using Nu-Swift I am surprised there are not 50 extinguishers in there already!

Their company had a period of trying to get everyone to install their Multra 'Multy-Purpose' ABC Powder extinguishers as they 'covered all risks' which is true, but as mentioned powder in a hall used by the public is bad - the obscuration and resultant panic from the discharge could actually be worse than that from the fire (e.g. in a waste paper bin scenario). Incidentally a 2 kilo Powder has more power than you may think - most are 13A rated and can cover the same 200m2 that a 9 litre water could.

As suggested the premises needs a couple of water based extinguishers (water or water additive or foam) for general cover, a blanket in the kitchen, and at least one CO2 if there is a significant electrical hazard (e.g. main distribution board).

With sketch plans, approximate floor areas and room usages I can do you a full survey to BS5306-8 if you really want - PM me if so

I'd suggest those who awarded Nu Swift the contract they actually get quotes from other suppliers- For the £250-£350 they charged for a single extinguisher you could get enough new ones to cover the whole site (3 or 4) and they will have bought more new extinguishers over the years than they actually needed to - I still regularly have to rip off their 'corrective action required' stickers off perfectly safe & functional equipment during inspections. They are one of the two extremes - at one end you get the 'shine & sign' merchants who are positively dangerous (see my thread on 24V detectors on 240V alarms systems) the other those who service correctly, but overcharge, over provide and scrap perfectly serviceable equipment.

Nu Swift & it's associates have too many trading standards prosecutions for my liking over the last 30 years ...