Flats FSO Common areas enforcement?

[Clevelandfire]

Yes it is my opinion and no I don't know of any case law because in my common sense world the problem doesn't often happen so there is unlikely to be any case law.

"doesn't opften happen" - you are kidding, we are getting this all over the place now. This problem is getting more and more frequent. There are hundreds of thousands of privately owned flats where the owner has changed their front door and there arent any other provisions as counter measures. Believe me we are seeing the tip of the iceberg.

[Clevelandfire]

No I would say back the sure winner and go for the Responsible person for the common areas. As someone said earlier a flat on its own is a bungalow. A bungalow does not need a fire resisting entrance door. So the fire door at the entrance to the flat must be part of the common areas M'Lud.

Indeed Kurnal but in some blocks of privately owned flats there is no defined RP as tthe residents havent set up their own committees, or dont employ a managing agent. As you say we wouldnd't serve an enforcement notice on a private resident as PhilB thinks we could. That is just a dead end scenario.

[Clevelandfire]

The situation is no different in your scenario Wizzer, except that now we have no power of entry to the flat, under the 71 Act we did have power of entry if 24hrs notice was given. I think it unfortunate that they didn't retain that power in the fire safety order.

But we do still have powers of entry under the FSO if 24 hours notice is given

[William 29]

Just to confuse the debate further I have come across this situation in a block where we have done an FRA this week.  The block comprises of ground first and second floors with 2 flats on each floor (single stair).  Nearly all the doors or doors and frames have been replaced with non FR doors or the glazing is not FR.  Also doors to the electrical intake cupboard are non FR.

We have been dealing with the property management company - lets call it Bloggs Property Services Ltd who manage a portfolio of 65 residential blocks.  There is also a residents association on the block in question called “Woodbine Court Residents Management Ltd”

Before serving your notice it transpires that some of the doors have been changed by the current residents, other were already changed before the resident moved in.  In all cases the doors have been changed without the consent or knowledge of the Residents association or Bloggs Management.  This is due to ignorance of the fire safety requirements in that they would be unaware that the doors should not be changed.  (I understand that ignorance would not be a suitable defence)

Who and how would you serve a notice on and how would you enforce it?

[PhilB]

The situation is no different in your scenario Wizzer, except that now we have no power of entry to the flat, under the 71 Act we did have power of entry if 24hrs notice was given. I think it unfortunate that they didn't retain that power in the fire safety order.

But we do still have powers of entry under the FSO if 24 hours notice is given

No we don't Cleveland there is no power of entry to domestic premises other than for article 31 purposes. Do I detect a training need?

[PhilB]

Yes it is my opinion and no I don't know of any case law because in my common sense world the problem doesn't often happen so there is unlikely to be any case law.

"doesn't opften happen" - you are kidding, we are getting this all over the place now. This problem is getting more and more frequent. There are hundreds of thousands of privately owned flats where the owner has changed their front door and there arent any other provisions as counter measures. Believe me we are seeing the tip of the iceberg.

by 'doesn't often happen' I mean the problems can usually be resolved without serving notices. If you are having many situations like this perhaps you should try serving a few notices...what else do you propose?

[Clevelandfire]

Yes it is my opinion and no I don't know of any case law because in my common sense world the problem doesn't often happen so there is unlikely to be any case law.

"doesn't opften happen" - you are kidding, we are getting this all over the place now. This problem is getting more and more frequent. There are hundreds of thousands of privately owned flats where the owner has changed their front door and there arent any other provisions as counter measures. Believe me we are seeing the tip of the iceberg.

by 'doesn't often happen' I mean the problems can usually be resolved without serving notices. If you are having many situations like this perhaps you should try serving a few notices...what else do you propose?

From the perspective of being able to get things resolved then yes I agree.

but we still do have access rights look again PhilB we can gain access even if we do not wish to take action but instead inspect or assess what is in individual flats

[kurnal]

We have been dealing with the property management company - lets call it Bloggs Property Services Ltd who manage a portfolio of 65 residential blocks.  There is also a residents association on the block in question called “Woodbine Court Residents Management Ltd”

Who and how would you serve a notice on and how would you enforce it?

Bloggs property services and the secretary of the woodbine management ltd. Serve it in the conventional way.
But follow the normal protocols first and see if you can agree an action plan before serving.

The powers on Article 27 and offiences in article 32 should enable you to do this effectively


Why are there so many problems with these premises and such a kerfuffle at the moment? Because they have been there for years and the fire authorities- under the previous legislation -had  no direct responsibility or duty to enforce. They still dont in Scotland.  We never went looking for problems and only visited in response to a complaint.

But the problems were there and have been for years.Its not really surprising that  standards are dire where there has been no enforcement. And people who have been allowed to totally ignore their own duties and responsibilities are aggrieved when they have to step into the real world. It all really proves your worth.

So now you have the tools do do a good job and reduce the risk in the community, I just hope you also are given the necessary resources to do it- without neglecting other areas.

[PhilB]

but we still do have access rights look again PhilB we can gain access even if we do not wish to take action but instead inspect or assess what is in individual flats

You have no power of entry uder the Fire Safety Order. That is not my opinion, that is a fact. Please explain why you believe there is such a power.

[Clevelandfire]

I know which section of which order or act gives us powers of entry in this respect, if you don't i suggest you look it up.

[jokar]

Let get this right, there are no powers of entry to domestic premises in the Order.

Flats are owned or leased and as such where comon areas exist, the owners or leaseholders become the Rp and as such can have a notice served upon them to uphold the fire protection of these areas which they would have to comply with.

As a point of interest, I understand why individauls and companies are involved in FRA's of these type of premises but why are FRS getting involved, surely they are low risk areas.

[PhilB]

Yes as you say IN YOUR OPINION  sunny Jim

I know which section of which order or act gives us powers of entry in this respect, if you don't i suggest you look it up.

Is no body sending Fire Service College instructors on common sense courses these days
I am absolutely fuming. What an absolutely daft post.

Clevelandfire, there are, as far as I know, no powers of entry into domestic premises under the FSO other than for article 31 purposes. If there are and only you are aware of them why not educate those of us that are not as knowledgeable as you.

Before you accuse people of submitting daft posts, wrongly assume they work where they don’t and use terms such as “sunny jim” , may I respectfully suggest that you get your facts right and that you know what you’re talking about!

If you make such comments and then claim to know sections of the FSO that don’t exist....you tend, in my opinion only of course, to make yourself look rather silly.

[Clevelandfire]

Take a look in the order and see what it describes as constituting a domestic premises

[PhilB]

Cleveland, I know how the order defines domestic premises.

It is as follows...."domestic premises" means premises occupied as a private dwelling (including any garden, yard, garage, outhouse, or other appurtenance of such premises which is not used in common by the occupants of more than one such dwelling);

The order does not apply to domestic premises, a flat in a block of flats is a domestic premises, you have no power of entry.

Please explain why you think you do.

[Clevelandfire]

a flat in a block flats is a single
domestic premises is it?