Bs 5588

[AndyLeather]

Hi guys a little help please on BS 5588, does any one know of a guide book  that consolidates the principles of these documents with key points or introduces/consolidates them in a more user friendly (& cost effective) way? (I have already checked Amazon & RIBA with no joy).

If BSI purchase is the only option then what are the most important parts for the life safety fire risk assessor to have in his library?

I understand the copyright side of things but generally a guide is produced by someone, an alternative has already been suggested with code 101?

Quite happy to fund BSI but I am looking to find the most cost effective way of gaining the knowledge.

Thanks in advance for your help.......

Andy

[wee brian]

the 5588 series are being replaced by BS 9999. BSI are planning to produce a guidebook, I expect that's a few years off.

[kurnal]

Take a look at the advance draft here:

http://www.ife.org.uk/docs/newsdocs/BS9999_Draft_for_public_comment.pdf

[wee brian]

To be honest the 5588s all have commentary in them which explains them as well as any book will. (9999 doesnt have this)

Part 11 covers most premises - read that one

[Benzerari]

Hi guys a little help please on BS 5588, does any one know of a guide book  that consolidates the principles of these documents with key points or introduces/consolidates them in a more user friendly (& cost effective) way? (I have already checked Amazon & RIBA with no joy).

If BSI purchase is the only option then what are the most important parts for the life safety fire risk assessor to have in his library?

I understand the copyright side of things but generally a guide is produced by someone, an alternative has already been suggested with code 101?

Quite happy to fund BSI but I am looking to find the most cost effective way of gaining the knowledge.

Thanks in advance for your help.......

Andy

You are in the right place to gain free knowledge with no cost, the only cost is your internet connection, there are many generous and helpful people in here... just keep expose your enquiry in different ways to reach what you are looking for....

You welcome

[jokar]

A little intrigue here, if you are doing risk assessment why are you interested in the 5588 series.  The Government has issued 15 guides for all to use and forbade(my word) the use of 5588 or ADB for risk assessment as well as the old guides as they have no risk analysis in them (apart from the old blue guide of course).  I can see the use of Part 7 if Atria are involved but otherwise?

[AndyLeather]

Thanks Guy's ,
I agree that I am in the best place for "free info" & dare I say fountain of practical, vastly experienced knowledge... I regularly view the posts also the debate & commentary, very rarely do I not gain a snippet or 2 alongside a different perspective that will always help.

Thanks for the info so far, onto Jokar's comment, I agree with your  question I have all 15 guides electronically stored, the FPA library to tap into etc; but.....
At a professional review last week I was quizzed about BS5588 & my knowledge was at best poor because all of my training etc; pushes me elsewhere for info, so I have a gap in my knowledge that I need to rectify.

Thanks for the advice & help so far, much appreciated, in my view the role of a fire risk assessor is a journey & not a destination (is that not what we all love about the challenge?).

Andy.

[kurnal]

There a lot of good background info in the LPC Design guide 2000 and the CIBSE guide E both of which can be found with a bit of diligent googling.

[AnthonyB]

The 15 guides are just that - guides, and several are quite basic and constantly refer to seeking further advice for anything other than simple situations.

The risk assessor is often the 'further advice' and should use a wide range of information sources in making their decision - 5588 may not have risk analysis in,but its the RAs job to do that, 5588 & similar resources just give possible solutions.

At the end of the day none of the guides or codes are prescriptive, the only bits that are are the broad requirements outlined in the RRO itself - you are free to use any route to plan how you meet them as long as it is suitable & sufficient

[Clevelandfire]

i wish there was an applause sound effect available on here because that makes a whole lot of sense to me. YOu are dead on the money AnthonyB

[Pete M]

LOL - The guides are, as AnthonyB says, just guides and should be considered as such - no more and no less.  Some of us may recall a certain issue of one which was based on an exisitng document with simply the addition of a number of 'cartoon' bovine etc characters.

Seriiously - the guides are a start to understnding the basic fire risk assessment process requirements for various premises.  But please remember that each buildinjg will have its own quirks and foibles - as such the general guidance may not be appropriate for each case without modification.

[jokar]

Ok, I have no particular axe to grind here, mine was taken away in the 70's anyway.  However,  5588 is a design guide for fire safety premises and there is a range of them.  There is no risk assessment methodology in them and no risk analysis.  Some of the clauses ie, clause 10 of part 11 are incorrectly used as people do not understand what it means and struggle with the concept of Travel Distance and direct travel distance.  They are, whilst being recommendations, reasonably prescriptive in the recommendations used and therefore may not be suitable for a risk assessed premises.  That said in the hands of a competent individual who risk assesses the travel distance into travel time and door widths into logic and is able to explain that process in and as part of the FRA are usable and the logic used is more sound that that found in ADB.  Also, they are premises specific not a one size fits all document.  I have to say the information on a creche in clause 8 of 5588 part 11 is much more concise than that in the educational guide.

I would be interested in a straw poll of what documents FRS staff and FA people use and how they explain all that in eiother thier notices or FRA to ensure that one or the other can make a decision on suitable and suficient.

Andy, what was the professional review was it an inhouse one or the panel interview for the IFE assessor role?

[AndyLeather]

Hi Jokar, it was the IFE panel, I have to say that my view is similar to yourself, what I have learnt so far about BS5588 is that it's primarily directed at design principals & some management (pt 12?), as risk assessors it all changes when you are presented with that great big "googly" called occupants or people!

My key tool is to walk through the building continually asking, looking & testing...
how would I get out, how long will it take me, what will bite me, what will protect me, how will it protect me, is it in a good enough condition to protect me, do I have confidence in the person who is responsible for protecting me etc; etc; etc;?
It is then that we test things that are not in known order by referring to the guidance & standards (the things that we have not seen before or require clarification on).

It is after all risk management even the ultimate industry profesionals still have different views on what is correct or not!

Thanks for your input.

Andy

[Fishy]

A little intrigue here, if you are doing risk assessment why are you interested in the 5588 series.  The Government has issued 15 guides for all to use and forbade(my word) the use of 5588 or ADB for risk assessment as well as the old guides as they have no risk analysis in them (apart from the old blue guide of course).  I can see the use of Part 7 if Atria are involved but otherwise?

Nothing wrong with using BS5588 as the basis of a risk assessment; in fact, one of the basic principles of risk assessment is that if compliance with good industry practice (GIP) is reasonably practicable that is the route that should be taken.  So, if a premises complies with all relevant parts of BS5588 (including management) then I'd not feel the need to reinvent the wheel!  Similarly, if a building has been built to BS 5588, ADB etc then what's been provided (in fire protection terms) MUST be maintained - you cannot use risk assessment to get rid of it unless you can demonstrate that it has zero risk reduction benefit, or you introduce other measures to maintain risk at least as low as it was before.  In these circumstances a working knowledge of 5588 is pretty important, for the more complex buildings.

What this doesn't mean is that if a premises doesn't comply with 5588 then you necessarily have to make it comply - if it's not reasonably practicable for it to comply then risk assessment leaves you the option of demonstrating an equivalent level of safety by other means.  The equivalence principle is important; again, without a reasonable working knowledge of GIP it is hard to see how you could assess equivalence to it.  The guides (as GIP 'benchmarks') are probably fine for the more simple buildings, but for the more complex I'd argue that you'd need to refer to something else as a 'benchmark' for the assessment - 5588 et al being the obvious candidates.

[Clevelandfire]

I once agin wish an applause sound effect was available on these forums because Fishy I like that answer alot