Questions questions questions

[Mushy]

Because I'm an ex ff I've been asked some fire safety questions that hopeful people on here can answer!

If an L2 alarm system is asked for, does that mean all escape routes and rooms off it MUST have detection or can it be all escape routes and just high risk rooms

Also if you have a corridor with offices, and that corridor has a fire door at each end and there is two way travel(either turn right or left) when you leave the office do the office doors have to be fire doors?

If an office (which for the most part is unoccupied) does not have a smoke alarm and leads to a means of escape corridor that does have a smoke alarm, does the office fire door need a smoke seal? How will people occupying other offices in the same corridor know if there is a fire in that office if the corridor alarm does not sound?
 I've been told the chances of fire are remote unless it is arson

Thanks

[Allen Higginson]

An L3 requires detection in escape corridors and rooms leading on to them - an L2 is this plus other rooms where there is an unacceptable risk of fire or where enhanced early detection of smoke is required in relation to alerting specific residents.
The rest I'll leave to someone else!

[Chris Houston]

L4 - escape routes only
L3 - escape routes and all rooms opening into escape routes
L2 - escape routes and all rooms opening into escape routes plus hight risk areas

Refer them to British Standard 5839, Part 1, 2002.

In very simple terms, a domestic type smoke alarm is not designed for office use.  If fire detection is needed in an office it should be a system than incorporates detectors where necessary and sounders throught the place.  So even if a room doesn't benefit from detection, it will benefit from being within hearing distance of a sounder.

Fires do occur in offices for reasons other than arson.....smoking, heating appliances, electrical faults, contractors.

[kurnal]

1- L2 is all escape routes, rooms off and high risk rooms/ areas as specified by the designer of the system. But the designer can also declare variations to the standard.

2- No office doors do not normally need to be fire resisting where there is two way travel in the corridor. Even if a dead end corridor the choice can be  fire doors or detection.

3- is it  a dead end corridor or is two way travel possible in the corridor? If two way corridor no fire door needed. If dead end corridor either fire door with seals or L3 detection ie detector in corridor and rooms adjoining.

[PhilB]

How tall is the building??

Protected corridors may be required for protection of the stairs in tall buildings.

The chance of fire is remote....well do nothing then!!!!!!!.......sorry I'm being facetious.

Who made that remarkable assessment???

Is a fire a reasonably foreseeable occurrence???

In a building with people electrics and fuel (I’m assuming there is fuel present) a fire could happen. If it could happen, then surely reasonable measures are required to protect people……how often it is likely to occur is not really relevant when determining required provision for life safety.

It may be relevant for property protection or business continuity.

[jokar]

Mushy, just to reiterate what some have said already.  In the main corridors for non sleeping risk premises do not have to be fire resistant and therefore there is no requirement for fire doors on individual office doors.  Sleeping risk and dead end corridors are required to be fire resistant and rooms onto these corridors will need to be fire doors.  This can change dependent on other uses of the said corridors or whether AFD is provided in lieu of fire resistant in some dead end corridors.  In addition, some small dead end corridors will not need fire resistance.

As regards the alarm system in the main offices will only have a manual electronic system with no AFD unless it is put in to to protect something else such a a lone worker or a specific risk.  L systems are htere to protect life and will normally be found in sleeping risk premises.  The categories of L systems are described above other than an L5 system that is a bespoke system wjhich can be higher or lower than any of the other systems.  The difficulties with AFD in office type structures can be unwanted fire signals.

All of this is obvioulsy interchangeable if and when a suitable and sufficient FRA is undertaken which will look at what is there at present and suggest other thinks to ,lower the risk from fire hazards that may be present.  Those fire hazards in lower risk premises such as offices may not warrant the cost of an L system.  Don't forget Cost Benefit Analysis is part of an FRA.

[Mushy]

Thanks you all for taking the time to answer

kurnal I've just made a call to this guy and he says that it is two way travel

Philb

I have read a number of your post on here and you really do come across as Mr Angry, are you like that in real life or is it just keyboard warrior type tapping of keys? I was in the fire service for nearly 30 years (all operational) so I have a reasonable account of where and how fire can and can't start and I passed that info on, however don't you fire risk assesers / fire safety officers have to give an account for risk like high, medium and low?

sorry I was just being facetious

How can a few questions receive so many exclaimation marks from you!!!!!??? ...it was just a simple question on fire doors amd smoke seals really but thanks for your efforts amyway philb

Having read the answers above I asked him about this 'low risk office...or remote risk as he put it' and he said that it is hot water radiators in all offices with no portable heaters ,all electrics are PAT tested and of course with the smoking ban they will be no smoking

[Mushy]

thank you Jokar I appreciate your reply

[PhilB]

Philb

I have read a number of your post on here and you really do come across as Mr Angry, are you like that in real life or is it just keyboard warrior type tapping of keys? I was in the fire service for nearly 30 years (all operational) so I have a reasonable account of where and how fire can and can't start and I passed that info on, however don't you fire risk assesers / fire safety officers have to give an account for risk like high, medium and low?

No not angry Mushy, I just get so excited and it makes me hit the !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!??? keys.

Yes you do have to take account high, low, normal risk.

But the fact that a fire is unlikely to happen makes little difference when you are assessing a building for life safety provisions.

It may of course prompt you to immediate action if it is an everyday occurrence. But the fact that a fire is unlikely should not in my opinion justify a reduction in provision for life safety purposes.

But many will disagree. A fire may only occur in your low risk building once every 200 years.....but it could happen tommorow.

[kurnal]

Hi Mushy

Phil B has made a good point that most of us have overlooked- and could be a relevant factor. If it is a very  tall building or an office building of over 3 floors with a single staircase, the fire strategy may rely on two door fire protection to the staircase, the corridor would then be a protected lobby and offices would need fire doors.
( though I guess in the latter case you would not have 2 way travel which you have now clarified.)

Thats the weakness of the forum- we all respond to a picture in our mind painted by our reading of the original post and we sometimes are all talking about different buiildings ( Except Dr Wiz who seems to to be more interested in eating his ice cream before it melts over Phils already damp trousers)

[Mushy]

Thanks for that

apologies philb...I got out of bed the wrong way this morning

Thanks Kurnal, apparently this is a two storey building with a staircase at each end which are seperated by fr construction

Thanks again I'll pass on the advice

[Tom Sutton]

I think this thread show why the knuckle draggers called us the black art every question has to be answered with another question unless you have an intimate knowledge of the building or the drawings in front of you.

It shows how difficult it is to visualise the situation and come up with a definitive answer, never the less some seem to be able to get to the point immediately, power to your elbow or should that be typing finger. Congratulations!

[Chris Houston]

between all the !!!!!s and ??s, PhilB does make an important point. Fires don't happen often in most offices, but we still need to cater for that rare occurance. Metronet's headquarters in paddington (telestar house) was a typical modern office block with PAT tested equipment, no smoking, no special features but it was still gutted from fire.

Mushy some times people smoke despite the ban, sometimes tested appliances burn, contractors will use heat, arson does occur, neighbours cause fires, unexpected things do happen. Fixed electrics can short, people can bring in heaters, radios. Veniding machines can be missed by testers, people may cook food, lightning can strike, fireworks can land on roofs. I could go on all day the point us that we can never predict what may happen, if we could then nobody would die in fires and buildings would not be lost.

[Mushy]

Can't argue with that Chris which I suppose is the whole point of the risk assesment with all the relevant facts built into it....otherwise your risk assesment would always go for the belt and braces all singing and dancing L1 systems and sprinklers in a total fire safety concrete box for my little office... just because there may be a fire, as someone said, every 200 years...

Yes of course fires can happen anywhere and anytime...but the fire risk assesers would adjust their findings to each particular risk....wouldn't they?

lol...I'll think twice before asking about fire doors in future

[PhilB]

Yes of course Mushy but I don't think the likelihood of a fire should figure much in that reckoning for life safety purposes.

You will come across many people out there who can do clever sums and work out the square route of a jam-jar to prove that a fire is so unlikely that the fire safety provsions can be reduced.

The measures that are provided under current building regs, and the fire safety order are for life safety purposes only and not property protection. Therfore extreme care should be taken before those measures are reduced.

Can I just point out Mushy that I am very happy....

........................ AND NOT AT ALL ANGRY
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?