Author Topic: Pay Vs Competency  (Read 19910 times)

Offline Proby

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Pay Vs Competency
« on: October 30, 2004, 12:09:25 PM »
I am coming up to three years service.  I have been placed into assimilation point G for my pay meaning im on £21849.

The thing is that no-one in my brigade seems to be in a position to tell me when i will be competent FOR PAY PURPOSES.  Does the old qualified exam still exist?

I have heard mention of NVQs etc but again its not something my brigade seems to know anything about.  I have passed my probation exams but am now stuck in this limbo.  I think its pretty disgusting that the people who employ me are unable to give me an answer to this question hence i am asking here?

Can anyone help?

Also .... Does anyone know of any brigades which have wholetime members running retained on days off as my brigade are supposedly implementing this but again this is an ongoing things that no one has an answer as to why it hasnt started yet .... (they advertised for applicants over a year ago).
The Jobs Fcuked !! ;-)

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2004, 03:06:11 PM »
Proby (or ex proby with 3 years!)

Been through this before and it was VERY clear in the Pay Agreement. No one should not understand and certainly not the FRS personnel department!

It is absolutley amazing, nay disgusting, that there are FRS who do not know what they are doing about this. The way for all staff to move to competent pay is so crucial that is beggars belief that there are managers without the brains to have worked this out, especially when it is in writing and there are so many who already know! I am also somewhat bemused by personnel not having read these documents themselves - it is your pay and how can you ever be deemed competent (or maintain if so deemed already) if you don't take responsibility for yourself too! Unit 2 of the Ff NOS!

So for those who have chosen to ignore all the documentation that has been around until now here we go again:

4.33   Whole-time Firefighters and Fire Control Operators with less than four years’ service on 6th November 2003 will be assimilated to temporary assimilation pay points with effect from 7th November 2003. These assimilation points are equivalent to the current pay points (up to and including fourth year) enhanced by 7% with effect from 7th November 2003, 4.2% from 1st July 2004 and subsequent pay increases. Employees in this position will continue to receive increments on the assimilation points related to their length of service. They will move onto the competent rate of pay once they have completed four years’ service or are deemed competent in IPDS terms, whichever is the earlier.

For those starting now and therefore on the new route to competent pay:

From the Grey Book -

Rates of pay are based on defined stages of development leading to demonstration of competence in the employee’s role. These stages are:

Training
For the roles of Firefighter and Firefighter (Control) the training stage is the point at which an employee is in full-time training and is not yet performing the role in its appropriate context. An employee in this position will receive the trainee rate of pay.

Development
The development stage is where an employee is working under supervision in the role and is being assessed against the different functions that make up that role. An employee at this stage, before demonstrating competence in the full requirements of the role, will receive the development rate of pay.

Competent
After all applicable functions have been assessed as having been achieved, the employee will have demonstrated “competence” in his or her role and will receive the appropriate competent rate of pay


For a Firefighter this is all 9 units of the NOS - the NVQ would give you a qualification after successful demonstration against 7, the other two would still need to be completed so would not give competent for pay purposes, just a part thereof. However, again from the Grey Book:

As with all other units in a role map, a fire and rescue authority can require an employee to carry out driving duties. Where the fire and rescue authority does not require an employee to drive or, for genuine reasons, the employee is unable to drive he or she shall be regarded as competent in the role subject to having demonstrated competence in all other applicable functions in the role map.

So you do not have to be an appliance driver (Unit 9 in full) to be competent for pay purposes unless the FRS requires you to, you may need to be a light vehicle driver though and all the other competence within Unit 9, bar the LGV driving.

For those thinking of the 'special responsibility payments' they should be awarded it is worth noting the words from the Grey Book on the role maps:

The units of competence that form each of these roles are laid down in the NJC document – Fire and Rescue Services Rolemaps. Fire and rescue authorities can require any reasonable activity to be carried out by an individual employee within his or her role map. These role maps reflect fire and rescue service responsibilities incorporated into local Integrated Risk Management Plans in order to:

Apply a risk-based approach to fire cover and to all its activities in deciding how best to use its resources.

Focus on reducing the level of fire and other emergencies.

Develop and maintain effective partnerships with a range of agencies in the public, private and voluntary sectors where these can deliver cost-effective improvements in community safety.

Adopt safe systems of working to secure the health and safety of both its staff and the general public.

Minimise the impact of the incidents it attends and of its response at those incidents on the environment.


So none really available for anything, for example IRU, Rope rescue, TL, ALP etc - all fall within the above.

The old qualified examination is just that - the old one. There  is no qualified examination any longer.

Retained duty when off from WT duty time is now available for any FRS wishing to offer it and there are too many doing this aleady to note.  The Grey Book makes clear that there should be two periods of 24 hours free of duty though, this may mean only 2 days out of 8 when a WT member may be eligible for RT duty? Also if in an adjoining service then your service should require you to comply with their secondary employment rules.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline dave bev

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Pay Vs Competency
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2004, 01:56:45 PM »
excellent answer as always!

a couple of points potentially for disagreement though - additional responsibility payments - while i agree with some of your list i dont agree with it all, there will be an opportunity for additional resposibility allowance where there is a shortage of skills etc (from grey book - i assume if youre all that interested you'll already know the paragraph/page number!)

also some of the activities and skills that are maintained outside of the role map should attract additional payments - it really is down to the individual if they dig in deep and the skills really are required then they will attract payment, if they agree to do everything including training aquiring new skills etc to be able to carry out an activity outside of their role map then they will get no extra payments, and as previously stated it doesnt preclude an authority from additonal payments to meet their needs!

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2004, 04:31:46 PM »
Dave

I agree withyou about special resonsibility payments and what should happen. I just happen to think that the wording, of the section in the Grey Book, is so loose that employers will use it to make any skills they require fall out of the National Occupational Standard and thus not attract a SRA.

Also that is not my list - it is verbatim from the Grey Book! I sincerely hope that some examples of skills shortages to meet IRMPs, or some that are outside the role but within the job function are found soon. I fear that if not the SRA will fail to beapplied and we lose the opportunity to value people's additional skills properly.

Perhaps the requirement to have a qualification, D32/33/A1/D34/V1, in order to make assessment decisions, or verify them, for NVQ systems could be a first? After all these were optional units in the role  maps for WM and above and not within the role itself, they do fall within the job function too............... Any FBU branch/FRS negotiating this yet?[/i]
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline Proby

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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2004, 10:35:55 AM »
Thanks for your help guys (or gals)

Its a sad state of affairs when you telephone your personnel dept and they cant tell you anything, "you'll have to contact the training dept" is the standard quote.

Then the training dept cant give you an answer cause "we dont know".

Shocking that my employers cant tell me the direction of their service but the likes of yourselves can.
The Jobs Fcuked !! ;-)

Offline dave bev

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« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2004, 06:55:13 PM »
optional units - hmmmmmmmmnnnnnn

ok, wont go into that yet,

part of the trial includes looking at four potentials (where the role map doesnt fit)

moving to the next role
stopping the work
work shift (to where it should be done)
additional responsibility payments

so as a principle it is being looked at by the njc sub group - where it goes?????

dave bev

ok - optional units - are within the role and may be required as part of the job function - no additional responsibility payments as they are part of the rolemap and within the job function - thats the way it  looks at the moment

and so it goes! (nick lowe for those of you who remember! breaking glass ep! - 5 points for mr beverley's team)

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2004, 11:37:15 AM »
Dave

It is my understanding that the optional units in the Ff role map are included in the role - i.e. all 9 for competent pay (less the driving if not required to be a driver), but have now been taken out of the role maps fro CM, WM, SM and above. So this means that L20 for CM, A1 for WM and A1/V1 for SM (and above) are no longer in the role. These are the skill areas we should be fighting for SRA payments straight away, as the services need them for NVQs/Workplace assessment/QA. Following any success here then go back to look at other skill areas for payments?

John
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2004, 11:49:24 AM »
Proby

I think you should name and shame your FRS, they should all be in the know. Dave could be said to be well in the know - being a national FBU official, however I just read the documentation sent to EVERY FBU member and those sent to every FRSA, all available on the internet to this day too. Some knowledge came as a result of working in IPDS, but nothing that wasn't openly available anyway.

That any management (especially HR) should not know is absolutely disgraceful - where have they been, what do they read and how much are we paying them to be not-yet competent in their roles?

That any employee has not understood the terms of our pay settlement and its implementation is disappointing, that they may not even know that such documents exist is surprising, that they cannot find this out from others (somewhere amongst whom at least one must have read it) is amazing!
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline dave bev

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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2004, 04:23:28 PM »
john, there are optional units still in some roles - these were originally intended (i understand) to 'help' in the specialist roles within the rolemaps. this has got a bit 'cloudy' recently (there was also some read across from nvq's) so there is more work that needs to be done as regards clarification. fire investigation nos are about to be 'looked' at using fletcher consultancy (again!) but they and the fire safety nos will still need to be approved by the njc before they can be introduced. currently its only the standard ff and control roles that actually have agreed rolemaps.

the trails are progressing - a couple of brigades have almost finished testing the process though they have uncovered some 'difficulties' which will need to be sorted before the process can be finalised. a couple seem to have had problems re a or b within a role.

as for knowledge via openly available docs, i think you do pretty good in working things out, pity others cant do the same thing. i would be careful however cos some of the docs out there arent the agreed docs, though they have been posted with good intent they are wrong! so be careful about making definitive decsions or policies based on what may be inaccurate info. if you get chance to slow things down it could be more beneficial in the long run. this isnt the fbu saying grind the process to a standstill, we are committed to the process - im just suggesting dont run too fast and too far just yet. final meeting of the sub group to the njc has just been finalised for the 6th dec so you should all know more by then!

dave bev

Offline scott

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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2004, 11:13:14 AM »
My brigade reckons you do either 4 years or be competent in IPDS, which means having ticks in all of the boxes in the role model software.

Offline fireftrm

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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2004, 11:29:49 AM »
Scott - that is exactly as the pay agreement said, nice to know some have read it.

Dave - agree that soem of the docs are still 'draft' or were os, the ones I have looked at for pay are those released byt he NJC so agrred.

As for the role options I understand that those for CM and above have been quietly removed from their origianl postions? If this is so then A1 (or D32/33) and V1 (D34) are now not even options? Surely these should attract SRAs where the service requires them? This means most as the NVQ is well entrenched in the development systems.

If the unit is not an optional one then the service should not include it in the role, definitely outside the role and in function.
My posts reflect my personal views and beliefs and not those of my employer. If I offend anyone it is usually unintentional, please be kind. If it is intentional I guess it will be clear!

Offline Scott

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Pay Vs Competency
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2005, 09:41:28 PM »
Quote from: scott
My brigade reckons you do either 4 years or be competent in IPDS, which means having ticks in all of the boxes in the role model software.

As an update the brigade have agreed to pay competant pay after completion of the probationary log book. This is because new recruits are on IPDS compliant log books and will be competant on completion, which also meant they would get more money than people who joined before them (with less than 4 years service), who completed the old style log book.

Offline dave bev

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« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2005, 01:17:08 PM »
that is supposed to be happening everywhere scotty, not just in your brigade - its one of the (many?) anomolies that exist but wont in the future
the process is very much a 'local' one cos there are that many different systems in place - so in yours its log books, in other brigades its ..........


dave bev

Offline Scott

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« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2005, 01:23:18 PM »
It was the FBU locally to thank for this. Initially the brigade didnt want to pay until four years was completed.

Chris Houston

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Pay Vs Competency
« Reply #14 on: April 01, 2005, 06:15:48 PM »
OK folks, following a complaint, I've removed a post that was causing offence (and all subsequent replies and comments about it.)

It's rather sad that I have to do this, try and remain mannerable to each other please. :(

I would rather not close this topic as most of us seem able to debate this like adults, those who cannnot will be barred.


Thanks to the significant majority who are able to maintain a their dignity and not post drivel.;)

PS Dav Bev, what makes you think I have a life outside FireNet anyway?  :)