Residential Common parts again I am afraid!!

[messy]

Sorry all, but I need to ask again about residential FRAs and in particular, AFD coverage.

 When installing a AFD system in the common parts of flats, who is the system aimed at? If it's for the occupants of the flats, should they have sounders in their demise (despite it being a single private dwelling)?

I recently came across a FRA for a block of 1930s luxury flats. There was already an AFD system fitted but the consultant had advised the RP to extend the sounders which were currently only in the common parts, into each flat to achieve 75Dba at the bedhead.

Whilst I accept this is the standard for Hotels and the like, would you expect such provision for a private flats and how on earth could that be enforced or maintained?

I must admit to finding the whole area of residential common parts an absolute minefield and just when I think I have grasped it, something else crops up.

Whilst talking about this block and to settle a debate in the office, although 10 floors, there wasn't a dry riser? Neither was that fact mentioned on the FRA. Should it have been recorded as a significant finding? Should one be retro-fitted?

[kurnal]

If the flats cannot be considered safe for a stay put policy (eg 1 hour fire resisting construction, lobbies between any room and the staircase, short travel distance, ventilation in corridors and lobbies, no ancillary accommodation opening into staircases) then a full evacuation strategy is necessary in the event of a fire anywhere in the building- in other flats or in common areas (if you could consider that possible travelling down a smoke affected stair from 10 floors up and if you dream that folks may take any notice of the alarm at all?).

The flats are domestic property but the persons in the flats are relevant persons who would be at risk in case of fire in any other flat or in the common areas.

So in that case a full alarm system would extend to all parts of all flats probably with smoke detection in stairs, heat detection in flat lobbies, sounder from the main system in each flat with 75db in the bedrooms,  and a seperate smoke alarm in each flat.
You could educate the residents as to the reason for the system, try and persuade them to co-operate, minimise the risk in common areas and enforce this.

Can it work- not on your life.
Would people respond to the alarm? No way.
But that would be their decision. The RP would have done all he reasonably could.


But what else could you realistically do to improve standards in an existing building of the type described?

Sprinklers or water mist would be ideal but unlikely to be acceptable from the cost and disruption points of view.

[Midland Retty]

Just to add to Kurnal's post....I am seeing "delayed alarm strategies" now being used more and more in new and converted accomodation blocks.

It works is this:-

You will appreciate that the flats have individual standalone detectors so that if a resident burns the toast the alarm will sound locally in his / her flat and wont sound anywhere else.

There has long been an argument that whilst this avoids everyone evacuating unecessarily what happens if the resident is on holdiay and a fire starts?

In theory the fire could burn away happily and begin to impinge onto the escape routes by overcoming the fire resistance.

Whilst there is normally AFD in the common areas some say by then its too late! It is unlikely, but it could happen especially in converted accomodation where compartments are not 60 mins FR

So to overcome this the standalone detectors are wired back to the common fire alarm panel. The theory being that if a resident burns the toast the resident has two minutes to press a button on the detector in their flat to confirm it is a false activation, if they fail to do that the panel goes into pre alarm, and then after 5 minutes if no action is taken the alarm goes into fire and sounds the common alarm.

So in theory the resident has 7 minutes to confirm that the alarm is not genuine.

[jokar]

Hmm teaching some residents to do that may be difficult but i suppose once they have stayed out in the cold and wet for a while they may grasp the essentials.  You have to link this to the new CFOA policy on false alarms and Uwfs, can you imagine an FRS not turning up as they have had numerous false alarms or Uwfs in a residential block?

[kurnal]

Why not stick a heat detector in the flat lobby linked to the common areas alarm and use self contained LD3s in the individual units? That way even if the resident is on holiday the rest of the building will be alerted if there really is a fire, whilst being resilient to prevent unwanted signals.

[Midland Retty]

Why not stick a heat detector in the flat lobby linked to the common areas alarm and use self contained LD3s in the individual units? That way even if the resident is on holiday the rest of the building will be alerted if there really is a fire, whilst being resilient to prevent unwanted signals.

Yes thats the norm and my preferred option,

I mention the delayed stragety to enlighten Messy about some of the advances in fire alarm systems of late, but to my mind heat detection is the simplest form of detecting fire in unoccupied flats, (although some argue that the detection time involved is greater than a delayed strategy however)

[messy]

Thanks for your replies

From an enforcement point of view, is it realistic to expect (75Db) sounders in single private dwellings in cases like this  where several  occupiers of the flats are expressing they just "don't want the damn thing"?

OK - the occupier is a relevant person, but I can't see that article 22 necessarily applies as it's a dwelling.

I really do think that if stables and animal premises are viewed as presenting enough of a risk for their own guide, perhaps the Govt should consider a specific guide to common parts of flats which affects perhaps tens of thousands of addresses and millions of relevant persons. The current system of linking the guidnace for flats to that of HMOs and Hotels in nonsense +  badly presented

[nearlythere]

Why not stick a heat detector in the flat lobby linked to the common areas alarm and use self contained LD3s in the individual units? That way even if the resident is on holiday the rest of the building will be alerted if there really is a fire, whilst being resilient to prevent unwanted signals.

Yes thats the norm and my preferred option,

I mention the delayed stragety to enlighten Messy about some of the advances in fire alarm systems of late, but to my mind heat detection is the simplest form of detecting fire in unoccupied flats, (although some argue that the detection time involved is greater than a delayed strategy however)

Is that not the standard for purpose built flats where residents can be made aware of a fire in another flat but not necessarily to evacuate?
Conversion jobs are different in that they may not have the same level of seperation and a fire in the building could affect all occupants.

[Midland Retty]

Why not stick a heat detector in the flat lobby linked to the common areas alarm and use self contained LD3s in the individual units? That way even if the resident is on holiday the rest of the building will be alerted if there really is a fire, whilst being resilient to prevent unwanted signals.

Yes thats the norm and my preferred option,

I mention the delayed stragety to enlighten Messy about some of the advances in fire alarm systems of late, but to my mind heat detection is the simplest form of detecting fire in unoccupied flats, (although some argue that the detection time involved is greater than a delayed strategy however)

Is that not the standard for purpose built flats where residents can be made aware of a fire in another flat but not necessarily to evacuate?
Conversion jobs are different in that they may not have the same level of seperation and a fire in the building could affect all occupants.

Hi Nearlythere

Yes you are correct and I was erroneous in suggesting this would be of benefit to converted scenarios. Not really sure why I put it in. Oh well too late now!

Back to fire safety school for me!

[nearlythere]

Yes thats the norm and my preferred option,

I mention the delayed stragety to enlighten Messy about some of the advances in fire alarm systems of late, but to my mind heat detection is the simplest form of detecting fire in unoccupied flats, (although some argue that the detection time involved is greater than a delayed strategy however)

Is that not the standard for purpose built flats where residents can be made aware of a fire in another flat but not necessarily to evacuate?
Conversion jobs are different in that they may not have the same level of seperation and a fire in the building could affect all occupants.

Hi Nearlythere

Yes you are correct and I was erroneous in suggesting this would be of benefit to converted scenarios. Not really sure why I put it in. Oh well too late now!

Back to fire safety school for me!

You been at the liquid lunch again?

[Midland Retty]

Unfortunately not, no...lets not go there again NT old chap

[saddlers]

I think you are heading down a dangerous route with this approach. The FRA should surely only cover the common areas. The dwelling areas do not fall under the RRO, how can you install a system that you can not realistically manage because you will not be able to legally maintain the system.

Are you now going to start identifying flammable substance within their apartments and make them store them suitably, fire extinguishers in flats, flashing beacons in case the tenant is visually impaired...., assisted escape because my gran with mobility issues lives on the 8th floor.

Just because the responsible person has installed an alarm that is not the end of his issues. If he can not gain access to maintain them, has he seriously discharged his duties by installing something that is not manageable? I would love to see how much time and effort would be involved in trying to arrange access to every flat in a 10 storey block to inspect the system? Try and get two tenants to stay in on the same day, that is hard enough. the ADT man will be a permanent fixture on site trying to gain access to each flat.

In my opinion the guidance is there for the potential employee working in the common areas, it has nothing to do with the people in the individual apartments. Whilst there may be benefits for the tenants in having a system in the common areas of a building if it does have compartmentation issues, it does not come under the control of the RRO.

I agree that the guidance for this type of building needs to be addressed, but this is not the solution.

[TickityBoo]

It was decided not to include the common parts of domestic premises as "relevant premises" under Part 3 of the Fire (Scotland) Act 2005, as amended (licensable HMOs excepted) and so there is no duty in Scotland to carry out a FRA / implement fire safety measures (although there is a maintenance requirement in respect of premises and facilities for use or safety of firefighters).   New builds simply follow the Technical Standards in relation to detection requirements.

[Steven N]

Why not stick a heat detector in the flat lobby linked to the common areas alarm and use self contained LD3s in the individual units? That way even if the resident is on holiday the rest of the building will be alerted if there really is a fire, whilst being resilient to prevent unwanted signals.

Thats the option we try to use where possible. As for going into private dwellings to enforce things like sounders nooooooo way we cant as we have thrashed out many a time here! Why do people ask for the impossible/unobtainable? By the way Retty I like your delayed option right up to the time I think of the fly in the ointment, the occupier.