Distance from station

[Chris Houston]

Why not just mobilise both immediatly?

[kurnal]

Because theres not an unlimited budget available. If you have a station that is 95% reliable and through  preplanning of availablity is showing available in control it would be wasteful to double up and send double the resources needed just in case they fail to turn out- for ecxample someone could break down or an alerter may fail.  Plus it would lead to a lot of unnecessary blue light runs increasing the risk to road users.

[Clevelandfire]

Yes I appreciate that Kurnal

But lets say it takes 6 mins instead of 5 Im not sure where toby is getting his 15 minute fire engine 30 seconds after

[nearlythere]

Because theres not an unlimited budget available. If you have a station that is 95% reliable and through  preplanning of availablity is showing available in control it would be wasteful to double up and send double the resources needed just in case they fail to turn out- for ecxample someone could break down or an alerter may fail.  Plus it would lead to a lot of unnecessary blue light runs increasing the risk to road users.

Remember that the F&R Service need only give 75% efficiency in attending specific risks within the specified time.
No individual is entitled to a Fire & Rescue Service. It is there for the community and it is the service to the community, not the individual, that they are answerable for.
So John (Bulimia Nervosa or, I've written a book and I want everybody to buy it) Prescott said.

[toby14483]

The 30 seconds was a comment saying that my brigade would seemingly rather an appliance turned out with 4 people and without any BA capabilities in 5 minutes, than turn out after 5 minutes and 30 seconds with a full compliment. The next nearest station gets mobilised after 5 minutes. I think two seperate observations have been combined somewhere here.

Proceeding to different subject.

Someone mentioned  if it was pertinent to be a retained firefighter if it takes 6 minutes [edit: he actually said "more than 5 minutes", but ho-hum] to get to the station, and I was suggesting that its better to be taking 6 minutes to turn out, if staffing forces, than to have to wait 15 minutes (or however far it is) for the next station to respond. Obviously this would only happen if the staffing levels are so low that without this person getting to the station after 5 minutes, they would be off the run. Working on the basis that a 6 minute turnout is better than no turnout at all. Basically me stating the obvious in a crap way and confusing everybody.


And on Kurnals request for the RDS training, the staff will be fully trained before going on the run. BA, first responder, the lot. It'll take five months worth of weekends and three 5 day weeks of BA. As well as attending the weekly drill periods at the station where they will serve. This replaces the old one week of hose running and you can ride system, which is what I got three years ago.

If that doesn't make sense then forgive me, I'm just too dim for this writing stuff and will stick to squirting water around.

[Clevelandfire]

The 30 seconds was a comment saying that my brigade would seemingly rather an appliance turned out with 4 people and without any BA capabilities in 5 minutes, than turn out after 5 minutes and 30 seconds with a full compliment. The next nearest station gets mobilised after 5 minutes. I think two seperate observations have been combined somewhere here.

Proceeding to different subject.

Someone mentioned  if it was pertinent to be a retained firefighter if it takes 6 minutes [edit: he actually said "more than 5 minutes", but ho-hum] to get to the station, and I was suggesting that its better to be taking 6 minutes to turn out, if staffing forces, than to have to wait 15 minutes (or however far it is) for the next station to respond. Obviously this would only happen if the staffing levels are so low that without this person getting to the station after 5 minutes, they would be off the run. Working on the basis that a 6 minute turnout is better than no turnout at all. Basically me stating the obvious in a crap way and confusing everybody.

Now i see what you mean and wholeheartidly agree

[kurnal]

Thanks Toby.
We always used to find it difficult to find recruits for the retained service. Sounds like it will be impossible in the future.

[toby14483]

I thought the same thing Kurnal. I'm assuming they will see how it goes for a while then cut it if it puts too many people off.

[Chris Houston]

Because theres not an unlimited budget available. If you have a station that is 95% reliable and through  preplanning of availablity is showing available in control it would be wasteful to double up and send double the resources needed just in case they fail to turn out- for ecxample someone could break down or an alerter may fail.  Plus it would lead to a lot of unnecessary blue light runs increasing the risk to road users.

With regards to the blue lights on roads, I agree.  But in terms of budget, aside from the fuel costs, what extra costs would be involved in sending the wholetime as a backup?

[Mike Buckley]

In the brigades I was in the system worked that if a retained station did not turn out in 5 minutes then another pump would be mobilised. If the retained station then got a crew it would still proceed. Whether or not the other pump also still proceeded was up to control.

As far as mobilising a whole time pump as well it depends on the geography of the brigade. A brigade I was in was able to fulfil the attendance times with a wholetime crew over almost all of its area, however some brigades do not have that luxury (or may not in the near future!)

The whole thing about the 5 minute turnout was to meet the standards of fire cover requirements hence for the old D risk it associated 5 minutes to turnout and 15 minutes travelling to acheive 1 pump in 20 mins. There has to be a cut off somewhere as control has no idea whether a station will get a crew in 5 minutes and 30 seconds or whether they will be waiting for ever.

Remember the name of the game is getting an appliance to the incident in a reasonable time, not to ensure turnouts for retained firefighters.

[Midland Retty]

Hi Chris

Costs vary from Brigade to Brigade but to use my brigade as an example everytime a fire appliance responds to an emergency it costs £350 for a wholetime pump.

This is based I pressume on fuel, wear and tear, insurance, etc etc.

[Chris Houston]

What do you mean? Costs who? Where does the £350 go?

[Midland Retty]

Everytime the engine goes out it costs the fire service £350 (i.e; the money is taken from their annual budget).

How exactly the £350 figure is calculated Im unsure, but I presume they will have matrices which will tell them cost of maintenance per mile travelled, cost of fuel, etc etc

[Chris Houston]

Let's say a pump costs £250,000 and annual insurance for a brigade costs £200,000.  Theses costs are fixed costs, they do not vary depending on how many times it is used.  Like wages, they will be paid if the pump is in use or not.  This is accountancy gone mad.  

How much does it "cost" to do one of these smoke detector visits then?  Why not save loads and stop doing them?

[Midland Retty]

Let's say a pump costs £250,000 and annual insurance for a brigade costs £200,000.  Theses costs are fixed costs, they do not vary depending on how many times it is used.  Like wages, they will be paid if the pump is in use or not.  This is accountancy gone mad.  

How much does it "cost" to do one of these smoke detector visits then?  Why not save loads and stop doing them?

I agree

As you say certain costs are fixed regardless of how many times the appliances are used

I was just guestimating how they calculate the costs, perhaps someone here will know a little bit more about it.

But it is possible to break down what those fixed costs relate to per incident if you really wanted.

Lets imagine for example it costs £100,000 per year to insure the brigade for operation duties, and they attended 100,000 incidents you could say the insurance costs £1 per incident.

Then do the same with wages, fuel, maintenance etc to get total cost of all these factors per incident