CDM regs 2007 and the Fire safety Order 2005

[kurnal]

Pray excuse a confused old man what may be a silly qestion.

Why do the CDM Regs 2007 carry forward the old basic fire safety regulations from the former Construction Regs 1996  (now regulation 38-41?)
The Fire Safety Order applies to construction sites, it has equivalent provisions within, and enforcement remains as before? So why did they not remove these regulations from the CDM Regs?

The HSE enforce the Fire Safety Order on most construction sites- if enforcement action was to be taken would they use the CDM regs, the Fire safety Order or both?

In a notifiable project in an occupied shopping centre the fire authority would enforce the Fire Safety Order. Would the HSE consider parallel procedings under the fire regulations contained in the CDM Regs?

[jokar]

The HSE want FRS to enforce the construction bits 38-41 in existing buildings and they will enforce on new sites.  The theory is that for existing premises there will be a RP who may not have control of the construction bits and the constructors may not fulfill the criteria of an RP.  Seems a load of rubbish but hey who are we to argue with the legislators.  Perhaps the truth is they forgot about the Order and revoked the 1996 Regs and then thought they would need them.

The Order applies almost everywhere so why bother?

[kurnal]

Thanks Jokar but I'm still confused.

The RRO applies to all places including building sites. The RRO is enforced by the HSE on a building site that is fully self contained and secure. Where the site is part of a complex with other occupiers in addition to the site personnel eg updating of a retail unit in a  shopping centre, then the RRO is enforced by the Fire Authority.

The CDM regs mirror this and on sites where the fire Authority are the enforcement Authority under RRO they are also responsible for enforcement of the CDM Regs 38- 41 ( see Regulation 46- Enforcement)

Under the RRO the Responsible Persons (RP), must carry out risk assessments to protect relevant persons. In a building with multiple employers each RP must cooperate and communicate and carry out a risk assessment in so far as he has control.

There are fire safety regulations within the CDM Regs- Regulations 38 - 41. The CDM Regs identify duty holders in a completely different way to the RRO- defining roles such as clients, designers, co-ordinators, principal contractors etc. Some CDM duty holders may be extremely difficult to pin down as Responsible persons under the RRO.

Nationally I dont think the Fire Authorities appear to be aware or equipped to deal wth their enforcement duties under the CDM regs. Whilst the CDM duties and Health and Safety planning process appear to be working well on sites I think its all a terrible mess in terms of the RRO.

And  apart from some general guidance published by the FPA there appears to be no national guidance  guidance available on the application of the RRO to building sites and benchmark  standards to be applied.

Comments please.

[PhilB]

I don't really think it will be that problematical Kurnal because as you correctly point out on the sites that are enforced by the FRS both the CDM Regs and The Order will apply. Both require general fire precautions to be taken and if they're not notices can be served and legs can be slapped.

In my opinion article 47 of the Order would apply and if the matters can be dealt with using the Order that would be the vehicle to use.

If matters can't be addressed using the Order, and I can't think of a situation where it couldn't be the FRS could go after the duty holder using the CDM Regs.

I wouldn't worry about defining who is the RP under the Order because notices can be served on any person who has to any extent control.

As far as guidance goes HSG168 is still useful.

[Izan FSO]

Hi Guys
New to the forum so forgive me any lapses in protocol.

The way i understand Kurnals problem with the construction inside a shopping centre unit, The RP of the shop will have a FRA. The site manager will have his risk assessment and a method statement to show what and when will be carried out, these two RA's should dovetail together (article 22) and the RP of the shop should make any appropriate adjustments to the GFP during these works. Any breachs of the Order will be the responsibility of the RP of the shop.

[kurnal]

Thanks for the responses.
I have no doubt that the fire authorities would be able to effectively enforce the Fire Safety Order on a construction site should they need to and my gut feeling is that on sites where the HSE is the enforcement authority for the RRO they would probably enforce through the CDM Regs.

I may be perceiving problems where none exist but still feel something is not right.

HSG168 is still around and is still absolutely relevant. But nowhere does it mention the RRO cos its too old. It serves for CDM compliance but it perpetuates the lack of knowledge of the RRO in the construction industry. Which fire safety legislation should take primacy on construction sites ? As you say it should be the RRO. But at the moment in my experience I think CDM takes primacy in the construction industry and the RRO isnt even on the horizon. And does it matter? I  think it does.

This was all prompted when I was asked to provide fire safety training for a very diligent construction company. Much of their work is renovation of shopping centres. In order to deliver the training I took a look at how they work. I believe they are amongst the best in their industry and very diligent in terms of CDM regs.

My observations are based on an overview of two of their projects. In many respects fire safety standards appear very good. Pre planning, construction phase etc. It is all managed under CDM and duty holders clearly set out.

The problem I percieve (from a very limited overview admittedly) is that there is  understanding or awareness of the RRO and the concept of Responsible Persons. I found that the sites were well managed but there was insufficient identification of potential knock on effect of the project on fire safety elsewhere in the centre for example means of escape reduction in mall width, assembly points for staff of nearby units,  all of which have significant implications that should prompt a review of the  fire risk assessments by a number of responsible persons  far beyond the narrow range of dutyholders designated under CDM.

Yes all this can be enforced retrospectively under the RRO. But it would be much better if the RRO was at the forfront of fire safety on construction sites and in my opinion the duplicated provisions in the CDM Regs detract from  this.

[Midland Retty]

I quite agree Kurnal

I feel there needs to be more focussed information and training targetted at the construction industry as a whole regarding the RRO (FSO).

A new build presents enough problems as it is, but when constructing an extension to existing premises for example contractors need to be aware how their works affect exisiting precautions such as MOE etc etc.

There is also the duplication between the CDM Regs and the RRO as you rightly point out. Whilst they generally say the same things either one piece of legislation should be used and not the other.

We are seeing in other areas of fire safety  that the duplication of standards (such as the similarity of  provisions in the RRO and Housing Act for example) are being ironed out with decisions made as to which is the lead legislation as it were.

I don't see why this couldnt be transfered across to the construction industry too with clear guidance on what takes presidence over the other.

A standard informed approach will assist the construction industry in knowing what it needs to do to meet its repsonsibilities regarding fire safety.

[Tom Sutton]

A quote from the previous thread

As far as guidance goes HSG168 is still useful.

I agree Phil but it’s out of print does anybody has any info on what’s happening?

Also thanks to all contributors I missed the introduction of this regulation and hope that anybody who is aware of new legislation and standards they announce it on this forum because I am sure, not only me miss these events and needs to be kept up to date.

[kurnal]

Hi TW
In respect of CDM Regs and fire you need to be aware of the ACOP  L144 Managing Health and safety in construction.

[Tom Sutton]

Thanks Kurnal I am aware of that ACoP but does it have much about Fire Safety Regulations 38 - 41.