240V fire alarms

[johno12345]

Hi,

We have a 240V fire alarm which obviously doesnt comply with the safety signs and signals regulations due to the battery back up issue.

I have been told in no uncertain terms that we are not replacing the fire alarm. They know it  is illegal so they have told me to provide a solution that does not involve replacing the fire alarm.

If i were to have a UPS added to the system which would provide power in the event of a power cut, i think this would comply with the legislation. albeit  in a rather heath robinson fashion.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

Thanks

[Graeme]

still won't come near being compliant with 5839-1 and to be honest you are wasting money trying to muck about with a 240v system. Any decent contractor won't touch it.

[johno12345]

yeah i know but the mannagement arent interested in compliance with a BS, only legislation

[Ricardo]

yeah i know but the mannagement arent interested in compliance with a BS, only legislation

johno, you can always educate your bosses by telling them, that if they are interested in compliance with legislation as you say, then such a system as you currently have does contravene the "Requirements"  of the Health & Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regs 1996 which is of course "legislation"

[Allen Higginson]

Looks like you are going to be up to banging your head against a wall here but how many employess are we talking about here?

[johno12345]

as I understand it, the Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations states that powered signage requires a backup power supply. we can achieve this by adding a battery back up to the existing systems. I know they wont comply with the BS but as BS's arent legislation, they arent interested.

There are about 150 people in a large spread out factory. The risk of fire spreading is quite  low. There is one larger office block, 2 storeys but with more than one exit route and less than 30 people in it.

The directors also dont believe that law can be retrospectivley applied, likening it to building regulations.

There is a large brick wall here and we have been arguing since 1998 when it  was first brought to attention. I fear that I have to make the best of a bad situation and battery back up will at least mean that we have a fire alarm during a power cut.

[kurnal]

Johno
You cannot carry on pandering to the ignorance of your directors in this way. They are wrong. They are ignorant of the Law and they are ignorant of their duties and responsibilities under the Law.

If they want to put their staff at risk by not providing a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment and an efficient means of raising the alarm in case of fire that is up to them. They carry the burden of compliance and the risk of none compliance. You should not buy into their ignorance and liability by going along with their whims.
If they dont want to follow guidance and british standards thats fine. They therefore should read and implement the Fire Safety Order 2005 itself. This is mandatory and legally binding. Guidance and BS are there to explain the law and make life easier for them to understand and explain what the law says.

[Tom Sutton]

Johno I think you are between a rock and a hard place, you need to cover your back and ensure all negotiations with the directors are fully documented. I would imagine there are many similar situations around the country and they will not come to light unless they are subjected to an audit, which is pretty unlikely or they are involved in a serious fire.

[David Rooney]

I was just about to mention the RRFSO but beaten to by Kurnal.

I would write out a quicky Risk Assessment purely on the problems with the FA together with the potential consequences, send it recorded delivery and ask the directors as the Responsible Persons to collectively sign it.

Nothing like putting your name to something to concentrate the mind......

[johno12345]

it's pretty depressing for me here. Its one of those things that I know is right but they are determined not to upgrade. I know of many factories that have these old Gent systems. Unfortunately, I am the fire risk assesor annd my RA does include the absence of a decent fire alarm. They just arent interested in laying out £40k when there will be no return.

I have done  the best I can, and I cant afford to lose my job over this, so given the choice of being unemployed and all the associated problems with that, or improving on something regardles of its condition, what would you do? An improvement is better than nothing.

I am deeply concerned that I could be held to account in court should there be a serious incident.

[kurnal]

Hi Johno
As the risk assessor all you need to do is advise and recommend. Theres no need to recommend anything you aren't happy with.
Had an identical situation at a warehoiuse in kent. I told the client it was not on to upgrade an old 240 volt system with an invertor unit for all sorts of reasons- lack of zoning, audibility, old fashioned call points, resilience of system etc  etc. They wern't convinced by my advice so I suggested Dave Rooney to take a look. Dave told them the same things -thuings that they didnt want to hear so now they have appointed another fire risk assessor to take a further look. And knowing who they have appointed they are going to get the same message again. By the time they have found a consultant prepared to tell them what they want to hear they will have spent more than the cost of a new alarm in the first place and be no further forward.

[Wiz]

.................By the time they have found a consultant prepared to tell them what they want to hear they will have spent more than the cost of a new alarm in the first place and be no further forward.

And most importantly they will still be ultimately responsible for any defficiencies in their system. If the s**t hits the fan, they won't be able to palm-off responsibility on to anyone else!

[Galeon]

You are always going to get this type of problem , when risk assessments and completed by a person on the payroll of a company.
Life is hard enough already and to worry about your position , its a shame when the risk assessment came out they allowed for small premises say max 50 persons , outside this it had to be completed by a third party. Then you wouldn't be in the position of poacher turned gamekeeper.

[Martin]

I am not clear how an employee in this case can end up in court. The RP (employer in a factory) has the legal duty to take general fire precutions and make a suitable and sufficient fire risk assessment. The employer cannot delegate this duty but can delegate the task. If they delegate the task they are under duty to have some check on the competence and resources of whoever they use be it in-house or contractor.

 If  an electric fire alarm system is needed then the RA says so and I would expect it to say a back up power supply is needed to comply with the Safety Sign Regns. At this point the RA is in my opinion  suitable and sufficient as far as raising the alarm goes. It is not a high risk site. "There are about 150 people in a large spread out factory. The risk of fire spreading is quite  low. There is one larger office block, 2 storeys but with more than one exit route and less than 30 people in it. "

The crunch question is not does it meet a BS but if a fire starts can the alarm be effectively raised. In terms of reasonable practicability this may be all that is needed in the shorter term. However if a major refurb take place then improvement in the fire alarm system would need to be reconsidered at that point to decide if improvements are reasonably practicable. This would all be matter for the employer to decide on and it goes wrong for the employer to stand in court.

[FIRE]

Could you not contact the local fire brigade asking them to come and inspect the premises but state that you wish to remain annonymous? If they see the problem as serious as you (obviously they will i imagine) then they could issue an enforcement notice.