Author Topic: Company or Company Secretary  (Read 14439 times)

Offline PhilB

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« on: May 16, 2008, 02:55:29 PM »
When serving notices on a company, the notice should be served on the company secretary. i.e the notice is posted or handed to the company secretary.

But the responsible person, as defined in article 3, is the employer i.e the body corporate or company, not the responsible person.

Several brigades have recently served notices that could not be enforced becuse they have been made out to the company secretary, rather than the body corporate.

An officer of the company could be prosecuted as well as the company if the company's failings were due to his personal failings.

Offline FSO

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« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2008, 03:04:33 PM »
3. In this Order "responsible person" means—



(a) in relation to a workplace, the employer, if the workplace is to any extent under his control;

(b) in relation to any premises not falling within paragraph (a)—


(i) the person who has control of the premises (as occupier or otherwise) in connection with the carrying on by him of a trade, business or other undertaking (for profit or not); or

(ii) the owner, where the person in control of the premises does not have control in connection with the carrying on by that person of a trade, business or other undertaking.


Im sorry, I fail to see how article 3 refers to a corporate body. I feel this is strengthened due to the fact that there is no definition of employer within the RRO.

There is always somebody, or even a collection of people who have ultimate control. I have never seen a corporate body referred to as "him" before.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 03:11:23 PM »
the responsible person is the employer, the employer is the body corporate.

article 32(8) may help you understand..."(8) Where an offence under this Order committed by a body corporate is proved to have been committed with the consent or connivance of, or to be attributable to any neglect on the part of, any director, manager, secretary or other similar officer of the body corporate, or any person purporting to act in any such capacity, he as well as the body corporate is guilty of that offence, and is liable to be proceeded against and punished accordingly."

does that help?

Offline FSO

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« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2008, 03:14:02 PM »
Yes totally, thanks Phil.

That is pretty much what im saying. In fact I am struggling to think of a situation where you could not hold somebody accountable.

Any ideas?

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 03:14:51 PM »
Quote from: FSO
Quote from: Midland Retty
Quote from: FSO
Thats not the definition of the responsible person though, to where a notice would be served.
The company secretary is not a responsible person.

If it is a limited company all notices and enforcement action will be taken against "bodies corporate"

The correspondance relating to bodies corporate is ADDRESSED to the company secretary so that it lands on his or her desk - but it wouldn't necessarily be the company secretary in the dock if something went to court.

The Company Secretary ensures that an organisation complies with relevant legislation and regulation, and keeps board members informed of their legal responsibilities.

Company Secretaries are the company’s named representative on legal documents, and it is their responsibility to ensure that the company and its directors operate within the law.
Yes I totally agree, however you cannot take a piece of paper to court!
No, the company secretary or director would represent the company in Court but the company would be prosecuted.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 03:17:56 PM »
Quote from: FSO
Yes totally, thanks Phil.

That is pretty much what im saying. In fact I am struggling to think of a situation where you could not hold somebody accountable.

Any ideas?
Yes many situations, when the failings are a corporate failing and not attributable to any one individual.

Offline FSO

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« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2008, 03:20:41 PM »
please may I have an example

Midland Retty

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« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2008, 03:23:49 PM »
Quote from: FSO
3. In this Order "responsible person" means—



(a) in relation to a workplace, the employer, if the workplace is to any extent under his control;

(b) in relation to any premises not falling within paragraph (a)—


(i) the person who has control of the premises (as occupier or otherwise) in connection with the carrying on by him of a trade, business or other undertaking (for profit or not); or

(ii) the owner, where the person in control of the premises does not have control in connection with the carrying on by that person of a trade, business or other undertaking.


Im sorry, I fail to see how article 3 refers to a corporate body. I feel this is strengthened due to the fact that there is no definition of employer within the RRO.

There is always somebody, or even a collection of people who have ultimate control. I have never seen a corporate body referred to as "him" before.
FSO

As PhilB has said there have been several occassions where Fire Authorities have incorrectly served notices on named individuals instead of  "body corporate".

This small error can have huge implications - if a notice is incorrectly served it has no legal standing and can be challenged.

Furthermore I have known some crafty companies deliberately letting this go all the way to court knowing fully that the Fire Authority has incorrectly served the notices. They then pull the "youve served it on the wrong person" trick out the hat.

This means the case gets kicked out, makes the fire authority look incompetent and in some cases the authority could also be sued, or left to pay court costs let alone deal with a very cheesed off magistrate who's time has been wasted.

A company secretary is not a responsible person. You have to appreciate that in English Law a limited company body can collectively be classed as a responsible person.

This means all controlling directors of that limited company bear an equal burden of responsibility.

If you have a company with say 12 directors, who have a chain of over 150 stores across the UK, how on earth do you pinpoint which one has the most control over the company or most responsibility for say the issue of fire safety? How can they possibly oversee the day to day management of all 150 stores?

Is it the MD? is it the Cheif Exec? Is it the area manager? Has the Cheif Exec devolved some repsonsibility for safety issues to say the Operations Director? It goes round in circles and each director may have an individual argument as to why they arent responsible.

THe MD might say,  "Yes I am the person overall in charge of this company but I passed the responsibility for health and safety  onto the Operations Director - afterall I cant possibly manager or oversee everything so i delegated this responsibility to him"

You can see how much of a headache it could become to pin someone down who is overall responsible. This is why with limited companies the body corporate is classed as the responsible person.

All the company secretary does is act as a point of contact / representative of that company / corporate body. He or she alone is not completely responsible for any offences that have been committed.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2008, 03:28:12 PM »
You're not so daft are you Retty?

Midland Retty

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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2008, 03:30:50 PM »
Oh you know... I try!

Offline FSO

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« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2008, 03:32:57 PM »
Thank you for your detailed reply Retty.

I fully agree that the company secretary is not the responsible person. You have answered the question quite clearly for me when you state that somebody has more control but they passed on the responsibility of health and safety.
Obviously this person is within their rights to do this, however they cannot delegate their accountability. this is made very clear within the HASAWA 1974.
There will always be somebody responsible, the only reason why notices get served incorrectly is down to poor investigations by the fire authority. Of course dont forget to possible surfaced charges from vicarious liability.

Offline PhilB

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« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2008, 03:37:58 PM »
Quote from: FSO
There will always be somebody responsible, the only reason why notices get served incorrectly is down to poor investigations by the fire authority. Of course dont forget to possible surfaced charges from vicarious liability.
No FSO, sometimes it is just an admin error, as Retty correctly pointed out. If the notice is made out to the company secretary it is likely to be invalid and may result in substantial costs being awarded against the FRS.

Offline FSO

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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2008, 03:45:12 PM »
Yes I fully agree with what you are saying!!

If the FRS have done their investigation properly it can be served on the correct person, I appreciate it is easier to serve it on the company but that defeats the whole object of health and safety legislation.

Im sorry mrs smith, your son died because mr X failed to carry out his legal duties. Dont worry though, we have fined the company £25K. Not him though, he will still have his holiday next month.

Does not sit well to me

Midland Retty

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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2008, 03:52:25 PM »
Quote from: FSO
Thank you for your detailed reply Retty.

I fully agree that the company secretary is not the responsible person. You have answered the question quite clearly for me when you state that somebody has more control but they passed on the responsibility of health and safety.
Obviously this person is within their rights to do this, however they cannot delegate their accountability. this is made very clear within the HASAWA 1974.
There will always be somebody responsible, the only reason why notices get served incorrectly is down to poor investigations by the fire authority. Of course dont forget to possible surfaced charges from vicarious liability.
I appreciate what you are saying FSO

Your argument is that somebody somewhere is always going to be the person ultimately responsible for the commission of an offence or failing. And you would be right.

Due dilligance is no defence under the RRO however the severity of any action taken depends on the level of responsibilityand actions taken by reposnible persons or the body corporate.

If the MD is a concentious bod and has tried to do everything by the book, but someone somewhere lower in the chain has cocked up the MD may be punished by means of the action taken against the body corporate (ie the company is fined, bad press etc etc)

As I understand it there is then the mechanism wherby the prosecution can say " right the company has been found guilty and penalised but the offences were so serious that someone needs to go to prison for this" (lets say someone was killed).

That is the time where individuals are brought in to establish who ultimately was responsible. YOU cant always blame the person at the top - in a huge organisation there is no way the MD could no about every last little detail that occurs from the shop floor upwards.

The are various degrees of control and responsibility and this can be argued out in court.

If i give you the correct training and PPE to operate a lathe, you sign to say you have had the training and understand it then ignore that training and remove a guard and break your hand- or worse... who is reponsible ? me? you? who?

 But even still all notices, all correspondance would still from day one be addressed to the body corporate via the company secretary.

Offline FSO

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« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 03:55:05 PM »
Yes that has pretty much summed up where Im coming from.

Thank you for your patience chaps

Jay