Company or Company Secretary

[val]

Phil,

Now you are getting me worried!

Where there is a corporate body involved, (nearly always) we serve notices on that company at their registered address, but address the covering letter to the company secretary as the legal representative of the company. We also send a marked copy to the 'on the ground'  person in charge, e.g. the shop manager.

I fully apreciate that when we take prosecution action then almost anybody can be summoned and we often prosecute both the local manager and the corporate body if they have both shown failings. (We accept that some managers have so little 'control' that they are not really culpable and take this into account).

Please tell me that I don't have to re-write all my guidance, etc.

[William 29]

Due dilligance is no defence under the RRO however the severity of any action taken depends on the level of responsibilityand actions taken by reposnible persons or the body corporate.

MR

What about Article 33 ......"except for a failure to comply with articles 8(1)(a) (general fire precautions) or 12 (dangerous substances) it is a defence for the responsible person charged to prove that he took all reasonable precuations and excercised all due dilligence to avoid the commision of such an offence"

[PhilB]

Phil,

Now you are getting me worried!

Where there is a corporate body involved, (nearly always) we serve notices on that company at their registered address, but address the covering letter to the company secretary as the legal representative of the company. We also send a marked copy to the 'on the ground'  person in charge, e.g. the shop manager.

I fully apreciate that when we take prosecution action then almost anybody can be summoned and we often prosecute both the local manager and the corporate body if they have both shown failings. (We accept that some managers have so little 'control' that they are not really culpable and take this into account).

Please tell me that I don't have to re-write all my guidance, etc.

That's absolutely correct Val. The covering letter addressed to the Company Seceretary and posted or delivered to him at the registered office. But the actual notice itself should be filled out:

Name: The Naughty Gadgers PLC
Address: Naughty Gadger House, High St, Anytown.
Premises: Naughty Gadger Store, 2 Small Street, Smalltown.

and yes a copy to the manager at the premises is good practice.

What some FRS have done is made the actual notice out to the Company Secretary, which implies that he personally has failed to comply with the Order. A shrewd barrister may let this run all the way and then point out in Court that the notice is invalid, and I suspect he may apply for costs.

[val]

Thanks Phil,

You had me worried for a moment!

We have had the validity of notices challenged, sometimes with justification, sometimes, it appears for sheer devilment. We have beaten our inspectors around the head long and hard to get them to realise how careful they have to be.

[Mike Buckley]

Unfortunately, Val some people will do anything to avoid doing the work which is probably why the notice was issued in the first place. I remember one employer in the days of the FPA who when he was told that as he now employed 21 people he needed a fire certificate fired a couple of employees on the spot.

I am afraid that these days with the growing litigation culture everything must be exact and if it is wrong it will be challenged.

[Midland Retty]

Unfortunately, Val some people will do anything to avoid doing the work which is probably why the notice was issued in the first place. I remember one employer in the days of the FPA who when he was told that as he now employed 21 people he needed a fire certificate fired a couple of employees on the spot.

I am afraid that these days with the growing litigation culture everything must be exact and if it is wrong it will be challenged.

Spot on Mike

We are entering a new era really, Fire Authorities are being told to take more prosecutions forward nowadays by Central Governement. They need therefore to become more professional / on the ball in their approach to the legal aspects of the job. Lancashire FRS are ceretianly leading the way on that.

[nearlythere]

Unfortunately, Val some people will do anything to avoid doing the work which is probably why the notice was issued in the first place. I remember one employer in the days of the FPA who when he was told that as he now employed 21 people he needed a fire certificate fired a couple of employees on the spot

Remember this happening to me also so I removed the requirement for an improvement of the fire alarm system and served it under a different Article of the same legislation. He thought that by getting rid of a few people he did not have to do anything. He didn't save an awful lot of money really.

[zimmy]

as for an example......

a stores person delivers boxes of leaflets to a fire station and places them in front of a fire exit that causes a serious problem that night. Who's to blame? the stores person?....who hasn't been trained......maybe the training department.....could be the health and safety department for not risk assessing the task....maybe the employer? who is that? Human resources? Maybe its the person in control of the premises at the time....the watch manager on duty? but he only came on at 6 and doesn't know anything. could be the property department, could be the publications department who told him to deliver in the first place....or is it just the Service as a body corporate...or the Authority? My guess would be to serve a notice on the Authority addressed to the clerk.

not so straightforward!

[PhilB]

as for an example......

a stores person delivers boxes of leaflets to a fire station and places them in front of a fire exit that causes a serious problem that night. Who's to blame? the stores person?....who hasn't been trained......maybe the training department.....could be the health and safety department for not risk assessing the task....maybe the employer? who is that? Human resources? Maybe its the person in control of the premises at the time....the watch manager on duty? but he only came on at 6 and doesn't know anything. could be the property department, could be the publications department who told him to deliver in the first place....or is it just the Service as a body corporate...or the Authority? My guess would be to serve a notice on the Authority addressed to the clerk.

not so straightforward!

Zimmy in this situation why would you want to serve a notice?  You just move the boxes and consider if an offence has been committed.

If the boxes had placed relevant persons at risk of death or serious injury (unlikely) you may want to prosecute. In that case you need to investigate to determine who is at fault.

This involves interviewing persons and examining job desscriptions, employment contracts, training records etc. Best practice to start at the top to see if the company/organisation can demonstrate due dilligence, if they can then the person who should be prosecuted is further down the chain.

[Mike Buckley]

Zimmy, if it is kept to the service the stores person gets chewed out under the "Being Bloody Stupid Act 1908 ". However if a fire person is injured and claims via Mssrs Sue, Grabit and Run, everybody gets sued particularly the Fire Authority as they have the insurance and the money. (Sorry, my cynicism is showing)

[Clevelandfire]

Zimmy

I think you must work for our brigade, our storeskeeper frequently blocks exits with his boxes. I'd happily support you issuing a notice on the Cheif or the Chair of the Authority - it would definately get them away from the golf course or doing funny hand shakes down at the lodge.

You start at the top and work down looking for any failing which may highlight the organisation or senior management being at fault. You dont really need to start looking at contracts of employment or anything that indepth unless people start clamming up and denying all responsibility or blaming each other. That sort of in depth investigation would only come if someone had been killed I would suggest.

I would be asking if the organisation told the stores operative to keep exits clear. If they said yes id want to see evidence, a memo, some training, or anything that said that operative knew not to block exits. If they couldnt id go for the organisation if they did and the operative was just naughty then he might get knocked off. It may be a culmination of theboth particularly if the stores supervisor saw his operative blocking exits and did nothing about it.

[zimmy]

The point of the example was to highlight the difficulty in identifying an individual to blame. Whether a notice or prosecution, an investigation would be unlikely to reveal one person at fault and therefore it would probably result in action against the Authority....unless of course the stores man had signed a piece of paper within the last three months saying 'i hereby declare that I have been fully trained, both through induction and periodic refreshers in the correct manner in which to deliver and place various quantities of goods to their designated location with particular regard to avoidance of contavening Article 14 of the RRFSO!...then it would be easy!

[PhilB]

You dont really need to start looking at contracts of employment or anything that indepth unless people start clamming up and denying all responsibility or blaming each other. That sort of in depth investigation would only come if someone had been killed I would suggest.

It is only an offence if persons are placed at risk of death or serious injury. If you don't look in depth to determine the extent of control and who is responsible for what you may have difficulty in Court, in my humble opinion of course.

[Big A]

Zimmy

I think you must work for our brigade, our storeskeeper frequently blocks exits with his boxes. I'd happily support you issuing a notice on the Cheif or the Chair of the Authority - it would definately get them away from the golf course or doing funny hand shakes down at the lodge.

.

You seem to have a problem with this. Did you get black - balled?