New take on an Old story. Fire extinguishers in flats.

[kurnal]

Why stop at extinguishers?
Why should a landlord have to fork out for fire alarms but not extinguishers?
If extinguishers are not necessary in flats, why are they necessary in hotels? factories?
Who the hell is Eric?

Eric may have penned the words but George was the name on the cover. I bet our mate pseudonym can explain that one.

We can either follow national recognised guidance on this or go our own way. Thats the beauty of risk assessment. BS5588 part 1 is the design document for blocks of flats. This document states that if the design follows the guidance fire extinguishers in common areas are generally not necessary for all the reasons outlined inprevious posts.

First aid fire fighting equipment is required in hotels and workplaces because they are workplaces and subject to different arrticles of the order. Common areas of flats are not generally workplaces for most of the time. And thats where the risk assessment comes in again.

[jokar]

Fire Alarms are not necessary in the Common parts of residential Flats either.  That is all dictated by Government legislation and government produced guidance.  As stated above BS 5588 part 1 is a design guide that is followed and reiterates all that has been said before.

Interesting point, many people did not want guidance to be produced to go with the RR(FS)O they thought that to risk assess off of nationallly recognised benchmark standards would be more suitable and more efficient,  The difficulty with the CLG guides is that they are incorrect in some places and in other do not cover enoughabout means of escape whereas if you risk assess from natioanl standards it should all be covered.

[Psuedonym]

Yup, Eric Arthur Blair AKA George Orwell. Most famed for the classic 1984. Written in 1948 and was published in 1949 he had struggled to find a title so simply reversed the date 48-84.
It was written as a piece of observational fiction and quite relevant today although it was not, as some would have you believe, a predictive novel for the end of the world in 1984 - that was a popular press piece of bs to bolster the film release.
Newspeak, Doublethink, Big Brother, the Thought Police, Ministry of Truth, the language of 1984 has passed into English language as symbols of the horrors of totalitarianism. Sorry, too much time on the road today, the mind just takes off on its own little tangents.............. .. .
My copy cost 85p and is dropping to bits. Bit like me really...

Back to the original thread: Any sign of Kidde just popping around to save the day? Oh no, not another marketing gem surley. How cynical. :lol:

[Clevelandfire]

Once again people who dont know anything about fire or fire safety are crying blue murder about the fact that common areas dont have fire extinguishers

Well oh my god stop the press, major problem, lets bring down the government!

Can I suggest those people read the whole thread again

PhillB Jokar and Midland Retty already told you why offices and hotels have extinguishers

Bit strange this has just come to light now isnt it - probably the people protesting are all related to the extinguisher industry. If you are that worried buy an extinguisher for your own flat, but dont try and tell me its the Nanny states fault that there aarent any fire extinguishers in your flats

Why not let people have a go at putting out fire ? Well what a totally stupid argument - tell you what lets let everyone who doesnt have HGV licenses drive trucks. Better still lets let people who have never flown a plane become a pilot.

The fire service says the best thing is to get out and stay out - you live longer that way

But fine if you want to stop behind to tackle it without the proper training then fine go ahead, I tell you what why not man your local fire station too seeing as you know so much! What a totally silly response. I am absolutely disgusted. Do you know something it would really be good for you to go and be a firefighter and see what can go wrong. People can die or be seriously injured do you not understand that or do you think thats acceptable? Cos you havent got a clue.

Shall I tell you what happens to fire extinguishers in common areas? They are used to prop open fire doors which poises more risk or they get vandalised or knicked. But no you go ahead an pout them in and get charged for replacements or repairs its fine. I really dont care

[Dragonmaster]

Far be it from me to agree with Clevelandfire - but hear hear, well said old chap.

[f500]

I think comparing using a fire extinguisher to flying a plane is a bit childish.
Agreed if the RA deems extinguishers not to be required due to building design, thats fine.
But lets not get carried away, we have dozens of clients over the years who have saved their homes/businesses by extinguishing fires using their own equipment WITHOUT ANY FORMAL TRAINING, it's not rocket science, to insult these people by using the  phrase "stupid argument" or "silly idea" is ignorant and reminiscent of the worst type of "old school" fire officer.
The point is, every situation is different, thats why the RA is required.
You can not ban people from thinking for themselves, quick thinking action can have it's consequences, but has also been the saviour of countless lives.

[nearlythere]

I think one of the points being made is that if you place extinguishers in the common areas of blocks of flats you would have to replace them every day. If you have a policy of providing extinguishers for fire fighting they have to be there. If you don't, they don't.
The issue about training is one where I believe some people would advocate that, unless properly trained, you shouldn't use a spoon to stir your tea in case you injure yourself.
Flats are full of equipment which is more complicated than a point and press cylinder of water and no training seems to be required.
My theory is that flats have no need for extinguishers in common areas because there are usually no ignition or fuel sources contained therein. If occupants think otherwise then they can provide their own.

[davidandrewsuk]

I would take this whole thing simply to be.

1.Insurance requires provision of extinguishers
2.Untrained residents using said extinguishers is dangerous (regardless of in private or communal areas)
3.Legislation requires residence to be trained if extinguishers provided (according to article applies to both employess and residents of HMO'S)
4.Thus, training is both logical and lawfully required.

Training should also be ensured to be comprehensive to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that sufficient training was given in the event of court proceedings.

Many of the arguements put forward by people that seem to ignore these core concerns are done so in an attempt to cloud these points out of contempt for H&S or RA's in general.

Its a fun game to see what outlandish yet reasonable reason you can come up with next to make mockery of the topic.

With the state of the country and us fast having become no different than America in our blame & claim culture you can see why people have become so cynical.

I think it's simple however. Look for your axioms, see the solution.

P.S Theres a pole on the MOE site, can something similar be started here ? Would be interesting to see what the majority feel on this one.
If not register there and cast your vote.

[Big T]

Buy your own sodding extinguisher bin your chip pan, stop smoking in bed, turn off your electrical items at night and have a home fire safety visit would you? That would go some way to mitigate YOUR risk in YOUR demise, why does a landlord have to provide an extinguisher in THEIR corirdor with a tolerable risk to cover YOUR Flat?

I think I'll ring my local council and the highways agency to ask them to install fire extinguishers on the lampost at the end of my driveway to ensure that if there is a fire in my house I can run out and grab a fire extinguisher to run back in to put the fire out. I doubt they would very accomodating somehow. Probably because they are likely to get nicked or vandalised. Oh and also the small fact there is no requirement to provide them there

[nearlythere]

I would take this whole thing simply to be.

1.Insurance requires provision of extinguishers
2.Untrained residents using said extinguishers is dangerous (regardless of in private or communal areas)
3.Legislation requires residence to be trained if extinguishers provided (according to article applies to both employess and residents of HMO'S)
4.Thus, training is both logical and lawfully required.

David
Can you point me in the direction of the legislation which requires residents to be trained to use extinguishers please?

[Big T]

You will find it on Page 3 section 2 of the puffin "my first book of fire safety"

If only trained people should use them why do they have instructions on them? To remind the trainer during the test I would imagine

[nearlythere]

You will find it on Page 3 section 2 of the puffin "my first book of fire safety"

If only trained people should use them why do they have instructions on them? To remind the trainer during the test I would imagine

Eh?
Is that the legislation?

[Big T]

No that is a fictional childrens book I just invented.

[Midland Retty]

No that is a fictional childrens book I just invented.

*laughs out loud*


What the residents need to understand is that there is no legal requirement to provide fire extinguishers in private individual flats.

So if they want to protect their own flat they should purchase a fire extinguisher just like I would for my semi detatched house for instance.

Flats are constructed so that if a fire occurs in one flat it shouldn't spread to any other flats for 60 minutes. As I said before this is plenty of time to allow for the fire service to be called, arrive and deal with the incident.

Furthermore the common areas should be sterile and you shouldnt (in theory ) have a fire in them.

If people do wish to fight fire then fine, but it would be intresting to find out if the insurance companies would be pay out because of death or injury caused by someone attempting to fight fire with an extinguisher provided in the common areas who hadn't received any training.

So yes if you want to buy a fire extinguisher at you own risk for youre own flat then do so, but extinguishers in common areas serve absolutely no purpose. You should not have a fire in the common areas and there is nio requirement for a landlord to provide them for individual flats.

[davidandrewsuk]

I would take this whole thing simply to be.

1.Insurance requires provision of extinguishers
2.Untrained residents using said extinguishers is dangerous (regardless of in private or communal areas)
3.Legislation requires residence to be trained if extinguishers provided (according to article applies to both employess and residents of HMO'S)
4.Thus, training is both logical and lawfully required.

David
Can you point me in the direction of the legislation which requires residents to be trained to use extinguishers please?

Quotes it in the article.