L1 System compensatory for cavity barriers?

[Chris Houston]

Firefighters role now is saveable life and saveable  property.  In this instance whilst it is not a good solution providing the firefighters were aware that the cavity barriers were absent and that the L1 system ( fitted in all cavities) works and allows the staff to evacuate it could fit as a compensatory feature.  Again would the insurers actually insure it as it would probably end up as a car park.

What if it is someone other than the local fire fighters who have to put out the fire (the army for example), what is someone is trapped inside?  I think the need for cavity barriers is there for a reason and fire detection is not enough to compensate for this.

There is alot of misinformation about the subject of protection for firefighters.

This argument doesn't hold true for say premises where a fire appliance wouldnt reach them for  20 minutes

In which case by the time crews got their equipment off, and did  dynamic risk assessment was done you could be talking 30 minutes. And by then the cavity is probably breached anyway,

Its another bit of government  guff really. How are you going to make operational crews aware that there is no cavity protection? if they knew and persons were trapped do you think that would stop them going in.

Im not having a go Chris Im just stating fact - its another " well thought" government initiative that means diddly squat in the real world.

Fireifghetrs are paid to deal with fire emergencies

Fire is dynamic and whilst to a point predictable sometimes things go belly up. SO theres no real point!

What are you saying, that cavity barriers are not needed?

I've seen plenty "30 minute" rated barriers and doors that have offered significant levels of protection in fires that have burned for many hours.  

I think fire fighters would still attempt to rescue someone cavity barriers or not, but I think most would still hope for barriers to have been installed, even if they do not enter a building until 31 minutes after a fire has started.

I don't think the recommendations for cavity barriers is some "government initiative" but a recommendation that is well thought out by technical experts and something that the fire engineering community ought to support.  It is the suggestion that fire detection negates the need for them that is the thing that will mean "diddly squat" in the real world.

[stayedon43]

Thank you all for your help. It is the first time I have used the forum and I've found it of great assistance to compile my reply. I hope to be able to impart some of my own knowledge and experience, built up over 35yrs in service (and still going strong ) to help others on the forum.

[Tom Sutton]

I believe LISP is involved as it is in the other 2 units.

Please help an ignorant old soul I have heard of SIP but what is LISP other than a computer language

[kurnal]

Same thing TW- Large Insulated Sandwich Panel.

The darned things are very light and have huge structural strength till a fire occurs. Then the lining exposed to heat expands, breaks its bond on the insulation and drops on the firefighters carrying out their work below. Having lost its lower lining it has lost all its strength so then - especially if someone has been naughty and mounted plant on top of the panels - the whole lot caves in.  

The worse case scenario is if combustible insulation as been used and especially if there has been no fire stopping inserted between panels.
The nightmare scenario is EPS- expanded polystyrene, but PUR polyurethane is little better. PIR is better. The LPC has introduced an approvals and marking scheme to identify the panels construction.
The Industry group has also produced a code of practice and marking scheme. There is reference to it in appendix F of the ADB.
The videos of the two fires at the Prestcold site in Scotland make for interesting viewing.

[The Colonel]

If you want to see the devastating effects of the sandwich panels and what can happen to fire fighters look at the fire in Sun Valley, Hereford where two fellow fire fighters and friends lost thier lives. Even though the information on the plant was known to some persons in the service the lads at the sharp end had no idea how the building was constructed. Information sharing does not always work even know so as previously stated how is an L1 system going to compensate.

[Tom Sutton]

Thanks Kurnal I was aware of the problems with sandwich panels especially after the chicken factory in Herefordshire which colonel has alluded to but it was the abbreviation that threw me.