smoking areas in courtyards

[Firemac]

looking for an opinion on a new phenomena since the introduction of the smoking ban. These are external smoking areas off the main bar/nightclub area. You can walk out for a smoke from say just off the nightclub floor into these landlocked areas. Now some of these areas can hold over a hundred people. My query would be should they be treated as a inner room with everything that goes with that (occupany, alternative escape etc.) Where there is access straight onto a public street it is not a problem but where maybe in the event of an emergency 150 have to leave one of these outside landlocked areas and come back into "the nightclub" and then look for escape routes I think is a significant risk. Any opinions would be great

[nearlythere]

looking for an opinion on a new phenomena since the introduction of the smoking ban. These are external smoking areas off the main bar/nightclub area. You can walk out for a smoke from say just off the nightclub floor into these landlocked areas. Now some of these areas can hold over a hundred people. My query would be should they be treated as a inner room with everything that goes with that (occupany, alternative escape etc.) Where there is access straight onto a public street it is not a problem but where maybe in the event of an emergency 150 have to leave one of these outside landlocked areas and come back into "the nightclub" and then look for escape routes I think is a significant risk. Any opinions would be great

It is an area of public assembly and should be treated as such and whatever that entails.

[Izan FSO]

Firemac
The ones i have seen tend to be outside an exit door so they have direct acces to a place of safety. I would suggest that if a premises set up a smoking area that is landlocked then the door that they have gone through would not be required for MoE. However if it can hold that many people i would probably expect an alaternative exit from the area as that many people trying to get back in and then out again in an emergency is asking for trouble.

[kurnal]

Yes I agree. If totally landlocked off a function room it should be treated as an inner room.

If capable of holding more than 60 persons it needs two exits at least, and these should be independent of each other so it would then no longer be  an inner room

[nearlythere]

Firemac
The ones i have seen tend to be outside an exit door so they have direct acces to a place of safety. I would suggest that if a premises set up a smoking area that is landlocked then the door that they have gone through would not be required for MoE. However if it can hold that many people i would probably expect an alaternative exit from the area as that many people trying to get back in and then out again in an emergency is asking for trouble.

If a smoking area, place of assembly, is on an escape route, eg veranda, and can hold 60+ persons, does it need two escape routes? If one means of escape is back through the way one came out, and it was via an outward opening panic bolted door, will the door need to double swing?
Argue.

[kurnal]

Hi nearlythere- bit of a puzzle that one. In the circumstances you describe how can the smoking area on the veranda be substantially unenclosed  in accordance with the smoking regs and yet need exits?

If the smoking area was in an enclosed garden I would probably take an ASET / RSET approach depending on the size of the space and the risk to persons within the space and the available exits from the garden.

[Midland Retty]

Firemac
The ones i have seen tend to be outside an exit door so they have direct acces to a place of safety. I would suggest that if a premises set up a smoking area that is landlocked then the door that they have gone through would not be required for MoE. However if it can hold that many people i would probably expect an alaternative exit from the area as that many people trying to get back in and then out again in an emergency is asking for trouble.

If a smoking area, place of assembly, is on an escape route, eg veranda, and can hold 60+ persons, does it need two escape routes? If one means of escape is back through the way one came out, and it was via an outward opening panic bolted door, will the door need to double swing?
Argue.

Yes this a toughie NT

In theory I'd say no, purely based on the question "could you have a fire that could start / spread so quickly that it would cut off the final exit (the bolted gate you mentioned) in that area, forcing the smoking patrons to re-enter the club?"

To me if the answer is yes then you have problems which extend way beyond just the smoking area, it would make me suspicious of the standard of class of surface spread and materials used in the whole club.

Converseley however you could argue that human behaviour would probably mean patrons would re-enter the club and then use the same route they came in to evacuate and therefore would you want a double swing door by virtue of that.

I guess the easy answer is to put in a double swing door - it covers all eventualities doesnt it!

[nearlythere]

Firemac
The ones i have seen tend to be outside an exit door so they have direct acces to a place of safety. I would suggest that if a premises set up a smoking area that is landlocked then the door that they have gone through would not be required for MoE. However if it can hold that many people i would probably expect an alaternative exit from the area as that many people trying to get back in and then out again in an emergency is asking for trouble.

If a smoking area, place of assembly, is on an escape route, eg veranda, and can hold 60+ persons, does it need two escape routes? If one means of escape is back through the way one came out, and it was via an outward opening panic bolted door, will the door need to double swing?
Argue.

Yes this a toughie NT

In theory I'd say no, purely based on the question "could you have a fire that could start / spread so quickly that it would cut off the final exit (the bolted gate you mentioned) in that area, forcing the smoking patrons to re-enter the club?"

To me if the answer is yes then you have problems which extend way beyond just the smoking area, it would make me suspicious of the standard of class of surface spread and materials used in the whole club.

Converseley however you could argue that human behaviour would probably mean patrons would re-enter the club and then use the same route they came in to evacuate and therefore would you want a double swing door by virtue of that.

I guess the easy answer is to put in a double swing door - it covers all eventualities doesnt it!

People may want to re-enter to find a mate or girl/boy friend.

[Mike Buckley]

"People may want to re-enter to find a mate or girl/boy friend."

Pick up a handbag, coat, wallet, three course meal etc. Surely the whole thing should be to get people out without having to re-enter the building, they can find their friends etc. outside in the  place of ultimate safety.

[Midland Retty]

If a smoking area, place of assembly, is on an escape route, eg veranda, and can hold 60+ persons, does it need two escape routes? If one means of escape is back through the way one came out, and it was via an outward opening panic bolted door, will the door need to double swing?
Argue.

Yes this a toughie NT

In theory I'd say no, purely based on the question "could you have a fire that could start / spread so quickly that it would cut off the final exit (the bolted gate you mentioned) in that area, forcing the smoking patrons to re-enter the club?"

To me if the answer is yes then you have problems which extend way beyond just the smoking area, it would make me suspicious of the standard of class of surface spread and materials used in the whole club.

Converseley however you could argue that human behaviour would probably mean patrons would re-enter the club and then use the same route they came in to evacuate and therefore would you want a double swing door by virtue of that.

I guess the easy answer is to put in a double swing door - it covers all eventualities doesnt it!

People may want to re-enter to find a mate or girl/boy friend.

Yes thats what I meant about the human behaviour factor

[Galeon]

Another factor to take into consideration of actual headcounts , you will be amazed the amount of non smokers who join their mates in the smoking area , so you could probably half the quantity at anytime if only the smoking brigade was present.
( Down to 10 a day myself at present)

[Izan FSO]

Firemac
The ones i have seen tend to be outside an exit door so they have direct acces to a place of safety. I would suggest that if a premises set up a smoking area that is landlocked then the door that they have gone through would not be required for MoE. However if it can hold that many people i would probably expect an alaternative exit from the area as that many people trying to get back in and then out again in an emergency is asking for trouble.

If a smoking area, place of assembly, is on an escape route, eg veranda, and can hold 60+ persons, does it need two escape routes? If one means of escape is back through the way one came out, and it was via an outward opening panic bolted door, will the door need to double swing?
Argue.

not sure i uderstand you nearlythere (but i have been known to be a bit Thick) your smoking area is on an escape route...its outside the building why would it need any other escape routes..... you are already outside. the scenario that was posed by Firemac was a smoking area that is not on an esacpe route but outside the premises. but plese put me right my head is hurting!!!!