What AFD for common areas of Flats

[Wishy]

I am new to the forum and have just spent an hour reading various threads about what AFD is reqd in common areas of 'true' flats (no shared facilities owned by individuals).  After my hour I am still none the wiser!

My Client managers a number of residential blocks mainly 2 storey.  They are of an age where AFD within the flats were not reqd at time of construction.  The units appear to have 60 min compartmentation.  They share a single common stairwell to the final exit.  My Client can only advise the flat owners that they should have AFD but can not insist as there is no legistlation available (as far as I am aware).

I can see both camps regarding whether to have or not AFD in the common areas but in the absence of any warning from the individual flats what is the point?  As I see it from a common sense stance, provide a call point and sounder on each floor and provide free individual AFD to each flat.  This plus proper lighting is about all we can do.

Comments??

[kurnal]

The fire Safety order applies to the common areas. Someone will own or be responsible for the maintenance and management of this area. They will be the Responsible Person under the Order.

They need to undertake a fire risk assessment of the common areas. This will take into account the persons needing to use it and the potential exposure from a fire  that may put them at risk whilst using the common areas.

The flats themselves are domestic premises outside the order. However all should be advised to install smoke alarms for their own safety. The fire service will probably fit battery powered units for them free of charge.

Two storey blocks of flats are probably low risk if the upper floor is no more than 4.5m above ground level and all habitable rooms have exit windows. However the risk assessment should still consider whether there is any need for a common detection and alarm system and this will depend on the nature of the building. If there is full compartmentation, no stores or high risk areas opening into the staircase, if the staircase is kept free of stored materials and obstructions, if doors to flats are fire resisting its probably ok to operate a stay put policy and then there is no need for detection and alarm within the common areas..

[Wishy]

Thanks you have confirm my own thoughts.  The mine field opens when I get more storeys and questionable compartmentation.

[Clevelandfire]

Thanks you have confirm my own thoughts.  The mine field opens when I get more storeys and questionable compartmentation.

No minefield

More stories with questionable compartmentation = afd in common areas

Job done

[Izan FSO]

Thanks you have confirm my own thoughts.  The mine field opens when I get more storeys and questionable compartmentation.

No minefield

More stories with questionable compartmentation = afd in common areas

Job done

AFD in common areas with a heat detector inside the door of each flat linked into the common system this will give warning of a fire in an unoccupied flat. if you wait for a fire in the flat to be detected by the smoke detector in the common area the MoE are alredy compromised. Then with domestic detection (presumably a Pt 6 system) in each flat the individual occupiers will be warned of a fire in their occupancy and they can evacuate and raise the alarm for the premises with a break glass.

[messy]

Izan. I reckon it's a bit more complicated than that as detectors within flats (linked to the common parts system) may be difficult to achieve

How does the owner managing agent secure access to each flat (as they are outside the remit of the FSO) to install the HD then test the system periodically?

Yes, some tenancy agreements will allow for that, but many (perhaps most) will not.

I for one would not agree to take a day off merely to allow an AFD engineer 2 mins of access to my flat

[Tom Sutton]

I for one would not agree to take a day off merely to allow an AFD engineer 2 mins of access to my flat

Not even for the well being of your neighbours and you could always arrange a time suitable to yourself. (Evenings or weekends)

[messy]

Maybe I don't care about my neighbours. Maybe I have lived here for 50 years and we've never had a fire but now I have been forced to spend money on what I feel is unnecessary fire precautions forced upon me by the H&S obsessed nanny state. As for allowing my landlord access, no way- not until he's fixed the heating blah blah..... .....etc ......etc

Not my actual views - but you get the idea. The point I was making is that most of us would understand why the AFD was needed and the importance of routine access to maintain it. However I doubt that everyone outside the fire safety community would share those views and some would be thoroughly opposed to spending the cash and/or providing access to the Landlord/Managing agent.

Then what? If one or two occupiers refused access the entire AFD strategy is thrown into chaos. As far as I can see, it would be near impossible to take any enforcement action against the householder or RP as the flat would fall outside the scope of the FSO.

Maybe the whole issue of AFD & blocks of flats will become clearer with the new LACORS guides, but until then the confusion caused by the poor guidance in the Govt sleeping guide with continue

[Tom Sutton]

Questionable compartmentation then AFD in common areas with a heat detector inside the door of each flat linked into the common system. Should be no cost to the occupiers other than a little inconvenience once a year for testing. I think the suggestion is reasonable.

As for the part 6 in each flat, in my opinion that would be up to each occupier.

I very rarely got involved with blocks of flats other than dry riser tests but on one occasion we did recommend AFD in common areas with a mains smoke detector in the lobby of each flat and had no access problems at all.

[Clevelandfire]

it would be near impossible to take any enforcement action against the householder or RP as the flat would fall outside the scope of the FSO.

I disagree. The provisions in their flat are critical for other relevant persons in that block. May need to be a test case but I think the resident wouldnt win, and would soil themselves if issued with an enforcement notice.

[John Dragon]

Questionable compartmentation then AFD in common areas with a heat detector inside the door of each flat linked into the common system. Should be no cost to the occupiers other than a little inconvenience once a year for testing. I think the suggestion is reasonable.

As for the part 6 in each flat, in my opinion that would be up to each occupier.

I very rarely got involved with blocks of flats other than dry riser tests but on one occasion we did recommend AFD in common areas with a mains smoke detector in the lobby of each flat and had no access problems at all.

Part 1 system - test twice a year.

[Tom Sutton]

John I stand corrected so inconvenienced twice a year.

[messy]

I accept that the proposal for an L2 with HD/SD inside flats may be reasonable, indeed, necessary if compartmentation is poor - but is is workable?

The idea that it will take a test case confirms my point that it would be difficult to near impossible to enforce.

I reckon that many smaller FRS's would be reluctant to throw (and possibly lose) money at a test case, so perhaps it's up to one of the big boys to test the water. As CFS is such a major priority at present, maybe this will influence senior managers to consider such action.

[Tom Sutton]

I accept that the proposal for an L2 with HD/SD inside flats may be reasonable, indeed, necessary if compartmentation is poor - but is workable?

The idea that it will take a test case confirms my point that it would be difficult to near impossible to enforce.

First of all most purpose built flats will not require AFD but the few that do then I think it could be workable.

I agree enforcement using legislation is a non starter, other than the bluff and persuasion act.

If it is not going to cost anything and the occupants are given a full explanation then I believe they would be more receptive than you give then credit. Consider CFS, mings turning up on your doorstep with their bright red lorry, lecturing you for half an hour then sticking a smoke detector to the ceiling of your entrance lobby then going on their way.

I just think it would not be as difficult as you say and I thought I was a cynical old b*****d, I must be mellowing

[messy]

Maybe you are right and it's me getting more cynical as I get older.

I also reckon you must be working in a more generous part of the world than I!!