ADC for Middle Management Level ( Station Commander)

[bluelight]

To review and summarise what has been said so far............... does that sound familiar to anyone?

I can see both sides of the argument.

What I think I will do is take each task as it comes in the ADC and try to put myself in to the other persons shoes.

Try to think to myself ' if this was real how would I like to see it handled/ be treated'.

Thats the theory.

Thanks for the input.

It was very usefel

[Kaiser]

I can't understand why the ADC information is supposed to be such a big secret, the organisation wants individuals to apply for the positions, they are vague about what they want so the individaul has no idea what to expect and then they wonder why no bugger passes.  When I did my Supervisory manager's ADC, I lost points with one assessor for something I said and did, yet I gained points from another assessor for exactly the same thing.  This system is totally confusing to say the least, at least with an exam system, you had the chance to gain the knowledge before you applied for the position and demonstrated that you understood the amount of information required to do the job correctly.
  The ADC system as it is is also extremely expensive for FRS's.  If you ask for feedback as to where exactly you lost marks, it can't happen because the person marking you is never the person giving feedback so even though you are supposed to be aware of what to change, you still have no idea what you did wrong in the first place.......... The system was supposed to make things easier and simpler, but I think it has made it ten times worse than it ever was and far less effective that it was supposed to be.

[dinosaw]

Top marks Kaiser
Nil points hannahcva
Dragonmaster slays the myth to prove how unfair, unrealistic and unreliable the system has become. And I won't even take part................ by choice!!!

[xan]

Hannah,I admire your tenacity in trying to defend the ADC system (which has some merits).But in the real world it don't cut the mustard.We are now turning out some people that can demonstrate they have 'empathy'  but don't have the 'technical' knowledge to back up the potential 'management' skills.The 'development' programmes don't address this either.There is no substitution for  study and having an exam to test that 'technical' knowledge.It should come back in as part of the process,along with the ADC process.As mentioned,due to the illogical way the system is applied,you could pass an ADC in one county with a lower score than another-depending on how many people that particular county needs.I did an BAR last year,scored well, had no development requirements identified, but failed to make the 'cut' for the second round and therefore 'unsuccessful'.Had I taken those scores to a neighbouring brigade,i would have 'passed'.Even when you have passed an ADC,it is still the 'smoke filled rooms' that decide who gets the job,not who the person who came top of the pile who is offered the first job that comes along.I actually had a lucky escape, because although the 'rank/role' appealed,the job didn't.I see my mate who did get promoted getting more and more stressed with the job.He said to me and another officer the other day,that he saw us as the next generation to take the function forward.Oh how we laughed at him!We told him if he thinks that then the brigade is in trouble!The gain is not worth the pain,and that is being reflected all over the country.The system is just turning a lot of people off and they just don't bother.Who can blame them when i look in our station yard and see FF driving in porches and Mercedes coupes,making far more money from their additional jobs?As for me,I love my role,yes some of it is a pain,but I am now quite content to develope within role and do my CPD,and stay where I am.A happy worker is a productive worker.work to live,don't live to work.
ok rant over!

[Steven N]

IMHO the ADC system is designed to let FRS bring in managers from outside to facilitate change with the FRS. Thus the laughable scenario (see I  know the buzz words) of if you can manage a leisure centre you can manage a fire. This doesnt quite seem right to me but at the end of the day who are we ? We are only the people who actually do the job & make the service work. The sooner we get back to exam/technical knowledge based promotions the safer this job will become again.

[rips]

Stevo, I agree with some of your comments about the ITOP's and ADC's but would like to add a bit more.

The Exams were outdated and needed to be changed. They did not need to be scrapped just added too. The principle of the ADC is correct just it should not be used as s tand alone tool to decide who gets promoted.

We in Tyne & Wear are starting to make some changes. We have used the ADC since the beginning however we have always backed it up with RRA (Role Related Assessments), having a RRA interview and if appropriate  for the role / function a Vector assessment.

We are now going a stage further and adding to the RRA by adding a drill scenario and a written assessment. Yes it is a step back in the past but we will still use the ITOP and ADC to see who makes progress to the RRA but it is certainly a massive improvement.

One thing to remember is that has always been down to management to ensure all personnel are given the appropriate training / knowledge etc to carry out their role safely. Dont blame the ADC process for that.

[johno67]

Despite what we may think of the current ADC system, lets not fool ourselves about the old system.

I remember people easily passing the exams and getting through the interviews who were incapable of tying their own shoe laces.

I also remember ADO's who I wouldn't trust to tend my vegetable patch never mind run a fireground

And don't get me started on the nepotism!

I don't think the current National ADC system is perfect by any means, but I'm sure there are still some very good people in your Brigades getting through.

See it as a work in progress?

[rips]

Could not agree more johno67.

The old exams needed revamping, and I know there is a place for ADC's in some format. It will take time and some FRS are starting to get it right, by placing ADC's and RRA together to get an overall picture of an individual.

We will get there in the end, hopefully!

[bluelight]

I think the IFE exams should be used to assess the technical competence of candidates in the assessment process and that they should be adopted by fire services.

For example if you have your intermediate, graduate or members qualification the candidate should be exempt from the need to take the ITOP at the appropriate level of ADC.

What do you think?

[fantasia]

I'm going through the ADC process at the moment & my experience goes like this.....

last year i answered the ITOP questions as i saw fit - failed
This year I went for 'this is what they want to hear' and guess what - I passed!

It seems like the service doesn't know you well enough after 20 years of continuous assessments, so 1 expensive actor-heavy day should fix it all - you've got to ask what your line managers have been doing for 20 years to not know your potential.

I'm giving up chasing promotion after this year & starting my own business part time, not through bitterness but through necessity. I simply don't earn enough to keep things going on a single wage.

I must say hannah - having looked at passyouradc.com , you have a bit of a bias in this debate & it shows how the modern fire service is becoming a consultants dream. I guess we are just catching up with the rest of the battered, underfunded public services. Your site also shows how you can indeed improve your score if you are 'in the know'.

To all those others going through the process my advice - learn your gobbly-goop. Under no circumstances answer the questions as you would normally do at work. Some of the laziest, backward thinking people I have ever worked with got through last year. Strangely enough the majority were previous assessors & had worked in the development of the ADC's . No command experience amongst them. Is this what senior managers want though? perhaps they do.

[johno67]

This year I went for 'this is what they want to hear' and guess what - I passed!

You could look at it in a different way:

Instead of 'this is what they want to hear' substitute in 'this is what I should be doing'?

[kurnal]

Peoples vision of a fair and just society is a broad spectrum.

Question - Whose view is right? Answer=  Whichever Party is in power at the time as influenced by the pressure groups that they favour. Hitler, Hussein, Thatcher, Blair, Bush all demonstrate this time and time again. I am not comparing any of these figures and what they stand for- merely illustrating the point. Whether its individuals seeking advancement or local authorities seeking funding if you dont prove that you will do as you are told you will not get what you want.

We all have a choice. I go with fantasia on this one. Reminds me of the old saying  "the king is dead long live the king".

[johno67]

For the first time I have to say that I don't agree with you on this one kurnal. I would challenge anyone to explain why they think the PQA's that they are being measured against are unfair or unsuitable. I can look at the beliefs of any famous leader and pick out any number of things that I don't agree with or dislike. However, personally I can't pick out a single quality or attribute amongst the PQA's that I wouldn't want a middle manager in my own brigade to possess.

I'm less comfortable with the way they are assessed. I think that the ITOP, where you have to sort out your choice of project within a certain amount of time is unfair on many of the candidates as it tests for an ability that isn't really required in the role. When would you have to make a decision on something like that within an hour or so? (However it is certainly within most peoples capability to prepare for it. Buy a decent speed reading book - try Tony Buzan's Use Your Head)

I think the ADC certainly has a place in the selection process, however it is only a test of potential. I still think it needs to be supported by academic assessment, practical assessment and that all important experience.

If you are assessed against the PQA's and you don't measure up or you have to say or act in someway that you wouldn't normally in order to get through the process, then I would say that you probably need to have a look at the way you are now compared to the perfect example the PQA's set.

Unfortunately most, but not all, of the posts on this thread are submitted be those who have been unsuccessful at the process. From the way a lot of the posts read, there is no-one with any real quality getting through the process. Surely that can't be the case, can it?

I think its fantastic that for the first time in my career I have the opportunity to have someone independent look at the way I work and act and give me feedback on where I need to develop in order to help me become the perfect Fire Officer.

[Nearlybaldandgrey]

This year I went for 'this is what they want to hear' and guess what - I passed!

You could look at it in a different way:

Instead of 'this is what they want to hear' substitute in 'this is what I should be doing'?

You know what, thats exactly what you should be doing.

I've passed my ADC this year on the first attempt ever, and this is after 20+ years and with old exams. It wasn't perfect, I have development needs, but I passed.

Just because you've had a bad experience, it shouldn't put you off. I've learnt that through promotion processes in getting to my current post. It's all about doing some groundwork and applying yourself, turning the negatives into positives, listening to feedback and then doing something about it instead of whinging about how c*** it all is.

How many people have development plans of their own that they have produced following unsuccessful processes and career plans? Not many I would guess!

I have a career plan which has been amended here and there following set backs, I know where I want to be in a few years and what I need to do to achieve it. It's not cast in stone, it's flexible to allow for the set backs.

I agree that the ADC process isn't perfect, it doesn't fit within our comfort zone of managing fire service stuff, but it's the process that is here and will be for some time. It's about being a manager and being able to manage situations and people. Thats the harsh reality.