daily telgraph

[Steven N]

Has anyone seen this article & if so any thoughts on it?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/06/04/do0404.xml
Hope the link works other wise todays telegraph Rowan pelling. Seems a bit one sided to me but then shes a journalist.

[kurnal]

Theres a ground swell of opinion similar to this amongst the smaller B&B owners and is gaining momentum. Trouble is things are so polarised theres rarely middle ground sense and reason spoken by either side.

As most of you know I am a consultant working for the operator and on  the one hand i have clients complaining about jack booted fire officers  which I know isnt true- and then when I explain to the client exacly why an empty metal bucket doesnt make for a very effective fire extinguisher,  why the odd battery smoke alarm isnt going to operate early enough or wake people  up they go apopleptic and start writing to the newspaper.

 This week I suggested to one client that the single unprotected staircase is not the best place to site their refrigerator and the dining room may be a much safer bet. Again this was going to result in an advertisment in the newspaper about Elf and Safety gone mad with a headline like B&B guests refused permission to have a drink because of Health and safety rules.

Its getting hard work.  There is a confidential bulletin board for B&B operators where many vent their views but despite having offered several times to answer fire safety queries for them and try and strike the right sort of balance they have never given me access.

[nearlythere]

Theres a ground swell of opinion similar to this amongst the smaller B&B owners and is gaining momentum. Trouble is things are so polarised theres rarely middle ground sense and reason spoken by either side.

As most of you know I am a consultant working for the operator and on  the one hand i have clients complaining about jack booted fire officers  which I know isnt true- and then when I explain to the client exacly why an empty metal bucket doesnt make for a very effective fire extinguisher,  why the odd battery smoke alarm isnt going to operate early enough or wake people  up they go apopleptic and start writing to the newspaper.

 This week I suggested to one client that the single unprotected staircase is not the best place to site their refrigerator and the dining room may be a much safer bet. Again this was going to result in an advertisment in the newspaper about Elf and Safety gone mad with a headline like B&B guests refused permission to have a drink because of Health and safety rules.

Its getting hard work.  There is a confidential bulletin board for B&B operators where many vent their views but despite having offered several times to answer fire safety queries for them and try and strike the right sort of balance they have never given me access.

Maybe the problem is the handle which is attached to this sort of thing. I always maintain that RRO has nothing to do with "health and safety" which always seems to get bad press. Should it not be known as "life safety"?

[Steven N]

I agree with you both I think its a really dreadful hatchet job of an article by soemone with a very large axe to grind & unfortunately the platform to do it from. A bit of balance would be nice now & again !

[Mike Buckley]

Unfortunately part of the elf and safety problem comes from the way it is used. All too often it is an excuse for management or the workforce to get something they want by calling it a health and safety issue. Example where I work the company purchased warehouse coats for the workforce to wear in an specific area where we do work for a high profile company. The purpose of the coats is twofold, 1 they look good, all the employees are wearing the same coats professional image etc. 2 they protect the product from the fluff, dust etc on the employees' clothes. Because the genius who purchased the coats left it at that, no arrangements for cleaning the coats, they get dirty, Workforce goes up in arms claims Health and Safety problem. Naff all to do with H&S as the coats are not personal protective equipment.

Contary problem, management wants to stop workforce eating and drinking at their work benches, bans it for reasons of H&S, but they don't bother to ask the H&S officer or risk assess the problem before they do it.

I can see the RRO going the same way, The bad boys will blame the legislation for curbing their activities and the incompetent will hide behind it.

[messy]

For all it's faults, the quality of fire safety legislation and how it's enforced, seems to be considerably higher than the quality of the newspaper journalism in the UK.

Where's the balance in this article? It's just a lazy journo friend helping out a mate by compiling an ill researched & dubiously accurate account (sprinklers in a B&B??) and linking UK's F/S legislation with sterotypes that are known to wind the public up - like 'Elf & Safety gone made' and Euro laws affecting the UK.

If you remember when the Torygraph was a decent news rag, you must be older than me!!!

[johno67]

It's a typical right wing anti-euro rant from the telegraph. It will appeal to a lot of its readers as it will confirm that their existing views about this sort of thing are correct. Did you expect anything less? It would have probably been more suitable for the daily mail though.

I can understand that running a B&B is difficult though, I know that most have to work very hard and it must be painful seeing more of their small profit being taken away addressing things that were deemed to be ok not so long ago.

Although I concede that it still doesn't make it right.

[CivvyFSO]

Phil must install an electronic alarm system, fire-retardant doors, a sprinkler system, an electronic emergency lighting network, green men exit signs and extra fire doors.

My opinion is that the B&B industry are not all of a sudden a big risk, the issue is that they have been just about getting away with it under the FP act for years. It has been suggested that many of them told little white lies about which floor people were sleeping on just the get out of the whole fire certificate issue.

I don't come from a coastal town, so B&B's are not a huge issue here, but they are a sleeping risk with people who do not know the premises, and that risk needs addressing properly. I wonder how much of a different heart wrenching story the reporter might have written if someone he knew died in fire in a B&B. The FRS would clearly be at fault for not enforcing properly and the legislation would also be at fault for being 'self compliance' based. I can see it now... "Wishy washy Brussels bullsh*t that says 'where necessary' and a fire service that can't be bothered to turn up to check it is being adhered to anyway!..." The only thing that matters to journalists is that their opinion/drivel* gets printed.
[* delete as necessary]

Also we need to bear in mind, the premises may have actually been a very pretty building, with lots of character, friendly staff, lovely food, reasonable prices, and a potential death trap. The last 'quality' is easily overlooked by the untrained eye.

As Juliet Brereton says, why can't risk-accepting guests, such as me, sign disclaimers on booking?

"I am about to pay to sleep somewhere that if there is a fire it is likely I will die. My family are also with me and we all accept this risk. Signed:_________________"

Sorted.

{/rant off}

[nearlythere]

As Juliet Brereton says, why can't risk-accepting guests, such as me, sign disclaimers on booking?

It is clear Juliet Brereton is speaking through her rectum. She must just been promoted from tea lady to office runner and trying her hand at investigative journalism to come out with suggestions such as this.

Is she suggesting that every hotel or guesthouse in every town set aside a room or two to cater for those who have no regard for their personnal safety and are willing to sign their lives away so easily. Does that also include a written instruction to the relevant F&R Service that if there is a fire in the hotel or guesthouse she or like minded people are staying in, no firefighters are to risk their lives to attempt to rescue them? What about the other normal guests? Are they to be exposed to the risk from fire in the interest of Juliet's principles?

Sure Juliet, I think there is an opening there somewhere.
.

[Tom W]

"I am about to pay to sleep somewhere that if there is a fire it is likely I will die. My family are also with me and we all accept this risk. Signed:_________________"

Sorted.





Thank you for that, it really made me laugh

http://www.oceanhousealdeburgh.co.uk/index.html

[afterburner]

is there a discount is the disclaimer is signed to reflect the 'savings' from not providing fire safety kit?

[Clevelandfire]

For all it's faults, the quality of fire safety legislation and how it's enforced, seems to be considerably higher than the quality of the newspaper journalism in the UK.

Where's the balance in this article? It's just a lazy journo friend helping out a mate by compiling an ill researched & dubiously accurate account (sprinklers in a B&B??) and linking UK's F/S legislation with sterotypes that are known to wind the public up - like 'Elf & Safety gone made' and Euro laws affecting the UK.

If you remember when the Torygraph was a decent news rag, you must be older than me!!!

I do agree yet i also feel that poorly trained risk assessors and consultants may also be to blame insisting on over provisions. As could inspecting officers if they aren't applying logic or legislation correctly.

[Psuedonym]

Anyone had the pleasure of assessing a cheap B&B (£8 a night!?!) in a large seaside town recently?
One where every penny counts and H&S does'nt?.

CivvyFSO has got it bang on. A large number have been getting away with it for years and probably still are. There are a couple of "one man bands" who "service" only these places and make their living from charging a B&B a fiver or a tenner for the five minute annual service of their fire extinguishers. All in, no questions asked. What kit is there is falling to pieces, no FA, no safety signage and no interest. So when they are faced with no alternative but to comply the smelly stuff hits the fan 'cos they are not happy bunnies. Tough.
When drumming up business during a past life I walked in a couple of these joints with a professional approach and walked out with a Foxtrot Oscar.
Bloody scary.

[Midland Retty]

An un-helpful article which does nothing to sensibly debate the issue of fire safety in B&Bs

I personally think it will take a fire with someone being put at risk and a fire authority hitting them with prosecutions before landlords take this seriously.

Im all for a measured and balanced approach but what a lot of landlords fail to realise is the benefits for life safety but also property protection - i.e. protecting their business and home

[Ricardo]

This is not exclusive to our Englsih cousins, a recent article from north of the border

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/638291

These comments certainly don't show the caring fire inspector in a good light at all, only doing their job, in the interests of fire safety,and attempting to help such people and many others like them to meet their legal obligations and help protect their customers and their castles just in case, god forbid they have a fire, ( no no wont happen to me I hear them scream)

So as a thank you, they contact the press, and complain it will cost thousands, and put them and others out of business (one of the smaller type premises who escaped fire safety requirements under the FPA71) and make their local fire officers look like common bullies.

On the other side of the coin, a guest house owner I was speaking with recently who in fact has three such establishments, told me that all his guest houses need to update their fire safety to modern standards, and if it has to be done, then it has to be done, he also told me quite openly, that his neighbours who also run guest houses can afford to get their "houses" in order, he said many manage  to afford to go on two cruises a year.

He was telling me that at new year they all met for a gathering with a street barbecue, and top of the discussions was the new fire regulations ( what a nice topic of conversation at a new year party) but no doubts they will play it cool , they will await the knock on the door from their local fire officer, before they take any action.

So if they can afford their luxury holidays, they can afford to update their fire standards as well, cant believe for a minute  that they would be too happy going on their hols and staying is sub fire standard hotels or guest houses, with goodness knows what going on behind a closed door nearby them.  But yet they are happy to take others into their abodes, with similar poor fire standards.