Compromised fire doors

[Midland Retty]

Bearing in mind that the cat flaps are very low down, wouldn't the fire have had to develop to a very large size before hot gases provided a positive pressure low down to force their way out of a cat flap?

Not necessarily. I take on board what you are saying but any aperture or breach within a fire resisting structure or component should be addressed and should be adequately sealed or capable of resisting the passage of smoke and flame.

My moggy's cat flap is well used and now over time doesn't close properly. Bit trivial I know but something worth bearing in mind - theyre just like doors - they do suffer from wear and tear. Also they're not normally fire resisting and not brilliant at preventing the passage of smoke.

Afterall we often require FR letterboxes so why would cat flaps not be a consideration?.

I wouldn't want to take the risk of cold smoke finding any little crack in the flap and filtering through into the corridor (particularly in the early hours of the morning in a block with no AFD in the common parts)

Going back to the first post.
Can a staircase be an evacuation staircase if a flat door opens directly into it?
I think not. (but can stand to be corrected by those far wiser)

Are we talking single MoE here?

Hi Davo

You can have a flat entrance door leading directly from the staircase up until a certain height ( up to three storeys) if memory serves me rightly but there will be an internal lobby or hallway within the flat. Anything larger will require lobby or corridor approach ie flat entrance door plus fire door to staircase.

[nearlythere]

Is a front door of a flat on to a common escape route not a common door for the purpose for which it is provided? The door may belong to the occupier but the purpose is for the safety of all occupiers. Nobody really cares what goes on behind the door, whether it involves pussys or not, as long as it is legal.
Is it similar to a block of flats where the roof springs a leak. It is not the sole responsibility of the occupier of the flat directly under the leak to pay for the repairs. It is the responsibility of all occupiers.

[Big T]

Going back to the first post.
Can a staircase be an evacuation staircase if a flat door opens directly into it?
I think not. (but can stand to be corrected by those far wiser)

Are we talking single MoE here?

Hi Davo

You can have a flat entrance door leading directly from the staircase up until a certain height ( up to three storeys) if memory serves me rightly but there will be an internal lobby or hallway within the flat. Anything larger will require lobby or corridor approach ie flat entrance door plus fire door to staircase.

Hi Midland,

You are correct. Diagram 9 in ADB Vol 2 shows that in small buildings under 11m in height, and with less than 2 flats per story, that if the dwellings have a protected entrance hall then the lobby between the common stairs and dwelling entrance is not essential. The point I made about the enforcement of tennants began last August and came to the conclusion I described in February.

All,

In my opinion, the entire fire strategy of a block of flats (especially in a social housing environment) the front door is the most essential item of passive fire protection you have.

The reason the doors are so crucial is because of all of the above anecdotes regarding amateur pornographers who weld their petrol driven generators in their lounge etc. As a company you cannot control what goes on beyond that front door, so in my opinion you must ensure that the front door is properly fire rated.

Whilst the expense of upgrading flat entrance doors accross an entire social housing stock would be prohibitive, In my opinion it is reasonable and practicle to rectify serious and obvious failings in fire resistance highlighted at the FRA stage and begin a programme of upgrade works accross the stock over a period of years to upgrade doors to include intu strips and cold smokes. No legislation is retrospective so upgrading all of your front doors accross your stock immediately would be wholely unnecessary.

Leaseholders are the problem as they own their own front door as supposed to a tennant who rent the door from you. As an RSL you legally cannot spend money on a leaseholder regardless of the severity of the doors failing, so tactful wording in official letters and support from your local brigade would be essential.

In my opinion a brigade could enforce the changing of a front door in a block of flats as it would be interfering with the means of escape for the other residents.

Incidentally in every lease you will have there will be a caviat within the lease stating that leaseholders cannot do anything to endager other residents or the block. So regardless of the fire order or enforcement, the leasholder would be in breach of their lease if they lessened the fire integrity of their front door in anyway. Therfore allowing you to force them to change their door.

[kurnal]

[Incidentally in every lease you will have there will be a caviat within the lease stating that leaseholders cannot do anything to endager other residents or the block. So regardless of the fire order or enforcement, the leasholder would be in breach of their lease if they lessened the fire integrity of their front door in anyway. Therfore allowing you to force them to change their door.

Thanks Big T- entirely agree with your excellent summary and the caveat is a great suggestion as to a possible way forward.

[Midland Retty]

Agreed. Useful info - cheers Big T

[The Colonel]

Gentlemen thank you for your very constructive replies which I have discussed with the managing agent of the flats, its given him some thinking to do and may have highlighted a few holes (not in the doors) but in the individual lease agreements.

Having read the lease agreements the following answer was recieved from the managing agent with regard to the flat entrance door.
"With regard to the lease I have read in detail and the issue of the flat doors is not specifically "included" or "excluded" from the definition of the property. It refers to the properties being flats but whether flats are defined inclusive of the door I am not clear. "

I am sure that the issue will be resolved to the satisfaction of all.

[Mr. P]

Common areas to be protected - therefore front doors to flats opening onto common areas to be FR. Any door providing exit route for more than one occupancy (flat) is common and therefore to be FR(S)SC)) etc. where it is part of compartment with due regard to direction of opening and opening mechanisms. final exit is, final exit and appropriate method of opening mechanism.

[nearlythere]

Common areas to be protected - therefore front doors to flats opening onto common areas to be FR. Any door providing exit route for more than one occupancy (flat) is common and therefore to be FR(S)SC)) etc. where it is part of compartment with due regard to direction of opening and opening mechanisms. final exit is, final exit and appropriate method of opening mechanism.

Don't quite understand this Mr P. I think you are getting confused with difference between a door which is for escape and one that is for protection of escape route. The latter is the subject matter.

Yes the door of a flat opening onto a common escape route should be FRSC. But the issue is how this is enforced.

[Colin Meech]

It might be useful here to take an example from previous Scottish regulations on this matter, they support nearlythere's comments.
Firstly, and most fundamentally, any door separating a single occupancy from a common occupancy requires to be of separating wall / compartment wall standard.  it is not simply a means of escape door and should not be regarded as such.
Secondly, as it is protecting, it is the responsibility of all concerned jointly or separately, individually or severally in legal terms.

and Scotland does have its fair share of tenement housing with many 'front doors'!