Advice required please.

[kmelectric]

Afternoon all. I hope you can provide a humble sparky with a little advice.

I have been recently providing the electrical works for a local landlord; who has a street of 13 blocks of flats. All two storey, purpose built (1930s) 2 bed flats. Four flats per block (2 up, 2 down).

All privately rented; with no shared facilities.

Landlords current fire detection system (grade F) - ground floor & first floor communal hallway / stairway. (2 no. per block!!)

I`ve picked up on this, and he has asked me to (quote)"come up with something".

The entry doors to the flats are not fire rated OR self-closing. My local council has informed me that they do NOT class the properties as HMO`s.
Their unofficial guidance is this:
D/LD2 in communal area; plus 1 no. heat detector in the room which opens onto the communal area. PLUS
A seperate D/LD3 within the flats themselves.
However, he then went on to say that, in his opinion, there should be a panel near the entry/exit.

So, AFAIK, it`s now a grade C?
And, if you`re going to fit a panel, it`ll have to be 5 zones. So you wouldn`t bother with an individuated LD3 within each flat; they`d all be taken back to the panel.

I don`t think the landlord will go for a grade C; on the cost issue. Am I better off trying to get at least a D in there?

Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated guys.
KME

[nearlythere]

Afternoon all. I hope you can provide a humble sparky with a little advice.

I have been recently providing the electrical works for a local landlord; who has a street of 13 blocks of flats. All two storey, purpose built (1930s) 2 bed flats. Four flats per block (2 up, 2 down).

All privately rented; with no shared facilities.

Landlords current fire detection system (grade F) - ground floor & first floor communal hallway / stairway. (2 no. per block!!)

I`ve picked up on this, and he has asked me to (quote)"come up with something".

The entry doors to the flats are not fire rated OR self-closing. My local council has informed me that they do NOT class the properties as HMO`s.
Their unofficial guidance is this:
D/LD2 in communal area; plus 1 no. heat detector in the room which opens onto the communal area. PLUS
A seperate D/LD3 within the flats themselves.
However, he then went on to say that, in his opinion, there should be a panel near the entry/exit.

So, AFAIK, it`s now a grade C?
And, if you`re going to fit a panel, it`ll have to be 5 zones. So you wouldn`t bother with an individuated LD3 within each flat; they`d all be taken back to the panel.

I don`t think the landlord will go for a grade C; on the cost issue. Am I better off trying to get at least a D in there?

Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated guys.
KME

Has a FRA been carried out?

[kmelectric]

No.
I don`t think the guy wants to pay out (typical landlord).
Thats why he keeps putting battery alarms in:(
I spooked him a bit, by telling him he would be liable (failure of duty of care) if and when anything happens.
Got a feeling I should spec. EM lights in the communal area too.

[nearlythere]

If there is no RA then if I were you I would install whatever system he wants installed and make sure you have it in writing. If he won't do that then walk away and sleep peacefully.
I know it is very difficult to turn down work and if you do he will probably get someone else to have a go. But fire alarm installations are there to save life, or not if it is not installed to the appropriate standard.

[kmelectric]

He doesn`t kjnow what he wants m8 - thats`s why he`s asked me to "sort something"

My issue is that, as the designer, I also have a responsibility.

I can deal with BS7671 - thats not a problem - I`ve been doing that 20 years.

But when even the local council & fire safety team won`t commit themselves, I get antsy.

Do I understand from your previous post that, if I have a letter from the landlords, stating the spec they want installed, that gives me cover if the install doesn`t adhere to recomended spec. ?

As I posted previously, anything I can get them to install will be better than the (non-existant) system that is in place now. If getting a written schedule (or similar) will allow that, without leaving me & my company open to negligence, or failure of duty of care action - I`ll be happy.

Thank you.
KME

[CivvyFSO]

I don't think that the control equipment mentioned in grade C warrants 5 zones. The type of control panel I tend to see on these types of premises consists basically of a box with lights on and a key/buttons. (Generally "on/off/silence/test/reset"). I have seen various systems claiming grade C status which are barely more than interconnected call points/detectors with a cancel/silence feature on at least one call point. To quote BS5839pt 6, Grade C: "with central control equipment"

To be honest, I don't think that the landlord is far off with that specification. The one thing that I would say (To him) is that the lack of fire rated doors and self closers is a big issue. But as someone installing an alarm that is not your problem.

We do have resident experts on BS5839 stuff so it will be worth hanging on, at least until Wiz escapes from matron and sneaks onto the hospital PC, for alarm advice.

[CivvyFSO]

Yes, I should probably go to bed.

[kmelectric]

S`funny.

The electricians forum I`m with is run by a "wiz" - not the same one, i`m sure.

We also tend to refer to our senior members as inmates - a lot of the sense is posted between 11pm and 2 am.

Mr. CivvyFSO - when you refered to the landlords spec. , I assume you were meaning the council`s thought of D/LD2 communal+heat alarm; and D/LD3 in each flat?

My only concern with this is:

If the "communal" alarm goes off, aren`t the tenant going to think its the internal alarm, and go to see if the toaster is still on!

Would we have to try and have different alarm sounds? I personally would like to include a strobe within the main bedroon of each flat. Is that even possible with a grade D??

Thanks

[kurnal]

Hi KMelectric
I fully appreciate what you are trying to do and generally go along with your pragmatic view- of anything you do will be better than the present arrangements. But if the owner does not want to carry out a competent risk assessment because he knows that the outcome will be something he cant or doesn't want to afford then it doesnt leave you much of an option.

In these circumstances you cant engineer the system down to the minimum standards the codes recommend because without the assessment we dont know what the strengths and weaknesses of the building are.

If we are putting a common areas detection and alarm system in we need to know why we are doing it, who needs to hear it and what are the areas that the detection needs to cover in order to raise the alarm in time for people to escape from a fire safely.  If there are no fire doors to flats then it could be that the common areas detection system needs to have detectors in the flats.

So what should you do?

To be sure that what you are installing will give the minimum acceptable protection I would install install a part 1 system in the common areas category L3- to incorporate smoke detectors in the common areas and heat detectors inside the entrance door to each flat. If the flats have rooms that open directly onto the staircase  I would install smoke detectors in those rooms except on the top floor of the building. You may have to consider extra sounders in flats.

The landlord would have to recognise that the system will need testing and maintenance and sort out access with the tenants. He will also have to explain the system to them, the reasons for it and ensure it does not get vandalised.

In each flat I would install an LD3 if the flat is arranged around an entrance lobby and bedrooms are closer to the flat entrance than other rooms. Otherwise an LD2 may be the order of the day.

This approach may well be OTT but if you do this at least you will be secure in the knowledge that you have recommended a system that will withstand scrutiny by the enforcement authorities and no one will be knocking on your door saying that what you installed was not suitable and sufficient.

It may be that on carrying out a risk assessment the outcome could be that money needs to be spent on doors (which will be an absolute minimum requirement from what you say) and perhaps then there may even be no need for a common areas alarm system. Impossible to say without seeing it.

[Wiz]

........... until Wiz escapes from matron and sneaks onto the hospital PC, for alarm advice.

Sorry I'm late but matron has only just untied me. (and so I also missed breakfast and lunch!) I have to admit my knowledge and interest in Part 6 is pretty weak in comparison to my love of Part 1 (and matron). With that in mind, I would therefore agree with Prof. Kurnal's advice in respect of the fire alarm system category.

I also feel that Nearlthere's point about getting the customer to confirm his requirements in writing if he won't take professional advice is very relevant. Too many installers accept responsibilities that they shouldn't have to be responsible for i.e deciding system category and, where they are not able to, system design. Obviously an installer who has the ability and knowledge in all these areas and can take on all these responsiblities should be handsomely paid for his expertise in so many fields!

I accept that if a customer asks an installer to tell him 'what he needs' then he would have a responsibility to get it right, but if someone tells you what they want, and ignores any conflicting advice that you or others might have to offer, then to argue with them can invariably only mean that you lose the job. Commercially, it could be better to do as you are told and let the 'stubborn' customer deal with the ramifications.

[kmelectric]

Thanks wiz,  prof. Kurnal, & Nearlythere . Very good points you all make; especially with regard to having the specification confirmed in writing.

Kurnal - r.e. layout of individual flats. -
Main door opens onto lounge. Kitchen door is adjacent. Beyond kitchen is bathroom.
On opposite wall of lounge are bedroom doors; adjacent to each other.
Internal party wall( upstairs flats only) is of lath & plaster construction; as are all the ceilings.

With reference to the zone panel; the information from the council fire safety team was that, if we have a communal hallway LD2; plus a heat detector in each lounge, there would be no obvious way of knowing which detector was generating the alarm condition. Further, a panel would allow the system to be monitored / checked without requiring weekly access to the tenant`s flat.

My other issue with that idea, when coupled with a seperate LD2 within each flat, is that the two alarm systems within the flat would be indistinguishable from one another. I could envisage a tenant wasting time looking around their flat for the problem; when the alarm condition is being generated elsewhere!

I understand the points you have raised, except one:

"KURNAL"To be sure that what you are installing will give the minimum acceptable protection I would install install a part 1 system in the common areas category L3- to incorporate smoke detectors in the common areas and heat detectors inside the entrance door to each flat. If the flats have rooms that open directly onto the staircase  I would install smoke detectors in those rooms except on the top floor of the building. You may have to consider extra sounders in flats.""

what did you mean by a "part 1 system"?

Sorry, but one other point occurs to me. I had considered the "extra sounders" issue; but should I also provide a strobe? Some of the tenants are elderly; and I know a few are very hard of hearing.

Thanks again guys.
KME

[CivvyFSO]

Re: Strobes; If the risk requires it then they should be installed. An alarm is not a means of giving warning unless they hear it.

A "part 1" system is installed to BS5839 Part 1. BS5839 Part 6 is intended for dwellings only and is a lesser standard. Part 1 involves 146 pages of stuff to learn and part 6 involves 76 pages. A simple example of the difference is that a part 1 system will be wired with fire protected cabling throughout and has a strict maintenance requirement.

I would suggest you have a good look at the documents.

[CivvyFSO]

It also seems to me to fit the criteria for a HMO.

[kmelectric]

Thanks. As far as I was aware, as the property does not come under HMO rules; then it was part 6 I was concerned with, rather than part 1 ??

Apparently, due to them being purpose built, self-contained flats; with no shared amenities, they aren`t HMOs!

This was my initial query with the local council; as I assumed they would be able to provide the definitive answer. I was aware that their status, HMO or not, made quite a difference to the spec. They have said NOT.

I`ve read part 6 of 5839; but not part 1. I`ve never had call to need it, TBH

[CivvyFSO]

Sorry, I failed to see the "purpose built" bit. It won't be a HMO.

Part 6 is designed for dwellings, i.e. houses & the self contained system within flats. Grade D LD2 is suggested in table 2 for the individual flats. For the common areas of flats, if an alarm is required this is not covered in part 6 which is why part 1 is being suggested.