Advice required please.

[kmelectric]

I appreciate the common area isn`t covered there directly; however, it IS covered under the fire safety book on sleeping accomodation.

[kurnal]

Kmelectric
Thanks for the info on the layout of the flats. Lets just keep this in perspective- I am only suggesting a part 1 system because there are no fire doors to flats and from what you say it appears that the landlord has no intention of installing them or carrying out a fire risk assessment. The L1  fire alarm system is no real substitution for fire doors but at least will hopefully raise the alarm before the escape route  becomes untenable.

As it is only a 2 storey building, out of interest is it possible to open the bedroom windows and escape out of them? Say no higher than 4.5m minimum size of opening in any dimension 450mm, sill height to floor no more than 1100mm and no spiked railing or conservatory below?

The layout of the flats will require a smoke detector in the loiunge as the bedrooms are inner rooms. see page 70 of the sleeping guide.

If you had fire doors to flats and the escape route was a sterile area I would probably suggest we go for just LD2 in the flats and no alarm in the common area.

If you dont have fire doors to flats I would still go for an L2 especially now we know the flat entrance door leads into a lounge. This is higher risk because with conventional flat design around an entrace lobby the lobby is genarally an area with very little fire loading and acts as a buffer between the room where the fire is and the flat entrance door.

[johno67]

Surely they will come under the FSO. If you do have doubts about the current or future levels of fire safety standards within the premises then morally a complaint to the enforcing authority (anonymously if needs be) should be the way to go, and should get the situation sorted?

[kmelectric]

Kmelectric
As it is only a 2 storey building, out of interest is it possible to open the bedroom windows and escape out of them? Say no higher than 4.5m minimum size of opening in any dimension 450mm, sill height to floor no more than 1100mm and no spiked railing or conservatory below?

Yes; this is possible.

As regards Johno67`s suggestion. I had toyed with the idea, IF I`d known who to put the "complaint" to. However, now that I`ve brought my concerns to the attention of the landlord, it would be fairly obvious that I was behind any complaint.

In my last conversation with him, he asked if any of this was mandatory, or just guidance/good practice. I believe it to be mandatory, but don`t know the specific acts or regulations to quote.

i.e. Our regs (BS7671) are NOT statutory. However, compliance with them is deemed to be compliance with EAWR 1989; which IS stautory.

I may be able to push the idea of fire doors (30 min?) as it would probably cost less than a grade C system. With the LD2/D within each flat.

Thanks again guys. This info is very much appreciated.

[CivvyFSO]

Under the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005: (Known as RRO)

The responsible person (The landlord) has to do a Fire Risk Assessment. This should point out the measures that are necessary to protect 'relevant persons', in this case the persons living in the flats. The RRO does not apply to the actual flats, but the occupiers need protecting from a fire elsewhere.

To give the landlord an example of what could happen: If I inspected somewhere where people were sleeping with no separation between dwellings or the common areas, and with no decent standard of alarm it would be likely that I would end up aiming towards a prosecution (Under the RRO), plus enforcement notices to bring it up to a reasonable standard. There would also be the potential to prohibit the use, but being only 2 storey he might about get away with that one. (Depends on whether window escapes are feasible, as Kurnal pointed out)

The prosecution would probably be linked to a lack of sufficient means of giving warning, with unsuitable means of escape (Due to the lack of fire doors) and  the lack of measures to restrict the spread of fire (Lack of compartmentation).

Even with the fire doors, the compartmentation between rooms/floors needs to be sorted out. Lath and plaster does not give enough fire resistance, so everyone in the building needs warning in the event of a fire in anyone elses flat. This is what the risk assessment is for, this would make it clear who is at risk, why they are at risk, and what can be done to get rid of or minimise that risk/protect the person(s).

FWIW, even with a decent alarm, if I turn up with my jack boots on I may still have a potential prosecution purely on poor means of escape and a lack of compartmentation.

The landlord needs to bear in mind that FRS's throughout the country are gearing up for more prosecutions. The days where we would turn up to find a dangerous premisesand just issue letters asking you (Or telling you) to put it right, and generally being helpful, are going. People need to be getting their house in order.

[kmelectric]

Thankyou Sir. Do you have any objections to me using that response in my correspondance with the landlord?

Martyn

[CivvyFSO]

None whatsoever.