Author Topic: CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors  (Read 26786 times)

terry martin

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2008, 01:56:37 PM »
Chris, i totally support your view.

The benefits of having an extinguisher to hand should it be needed, far outweighs the risks posed by a few old, disabled or possibly just plain inept people using them in the wrong way.

If a fire extinguisher is available, everybody has the choice in a small fire situation to either attempt to fight the fire or walk away, 999 times out of a 1,000 those people will make the right decision for them, by making a judgement of their own physical strength and/or confidence.

Removing extinguishers is removing that choice. that is wrong

Chris Houston

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2008, 03:20:53 PM »
I was worried that we were going round in circles.......

I've already said my knowledge of care homes is limited.  Shops that provide fire extinguishers don't insist upon training before letting customers in, in fact most only train about 10% of staff.  But everyone is arguing (and I don't know who is right) that residents must be trained?  Should we halt the sale of fire extinguishers to the public, most of them are untrained?

Providing extinguishers is giving people the choice and that is what I belive in.  My own experience of domestic fires (I've been to a few dozen) is that people always got out when it looked nasty, but always had a go in the early stages.  

I find it sad that the fear of being sued is a factor here.  Has anyone known it to happen?  I don't, but there seem to be plenty example where extingiushers save lives and money.  Risk assess that.

I thought someone had already said that only staff need to be trained?

Sorry I missed CivyFSO's question (I do have a job other than FireNet :) ).  I can't image my answer, my parents are neither that old or users of chip pans.  I would hope they have fire extinguishers in their homes, I would hope they would use them if their home went on fire.  I don't consider that either of them needs to be trained to pull out a pin and spray powder.

Midland Retty

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2008, 04:05:07 PM »
Its good to debate and I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

One question though...why aren't extinguishers provided in blocks of flats, or HMOs or the vast majority of sheltered housing schemes?

Mr Houston we are all busy with other jobs, although that said I do tend to be a little lapzidazical on a friday afternoon!!

terry martin

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2008, 04:10:14 PM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
Its good to debate and I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

One question though...why aren't extinguishers provided in blocks of flats, or HMOs or the vast majority of sheltered housing schemes?

Mr Houston we are all busy with other jobs, although that said I do tend to be a little lapzidazical on a friday afternoon!!
generally i find that a majority of privately owned flats do have them

 but i do agree that most generally don't. this i think is because of misuse and vandalism. let's face it if you put extinguishers in some blocks of flats they wouldn't last 5 seconds. they'd be found for sale in car boot sales,  thrown off balconies or let off through peoples letter boxes.

Midland Retty

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2008, 04:14:25 PM »
Quote from: terry martin
let's face it if you put extinguishers in some blocks of flats they wouldn't last 5 seconds. they'd be found for sale in car boot sales,  thrown off balconies or let off through peoples letter boxes.
And thats just the firemen - lets not even talk about the residents!

terry martin

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2008, 04:16:01 PM »
LOL.
theres a man talking from experience

Offline Tom Sutton

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2008, 04:45:18 PM »
Quote from: Midland Retty
One question though...why aren't extinguishers provided in blocks of flats, or HMOs or the vast majority of sheltered housing schemes?
Would it be, up to the commencement of the RR(FS)O no legislation covered the common areas of some of the above. It was the landlord’s choice and most choose not to provide extinguishers and it’s only now coming to light.
All my responses only apply to England and Wales and they are an overview of the subject, hopefully it will point you in the right direction and always treat with caution.

Offline val

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2008, 07:13:21 PM »
Boys,boys!
The CFOA circular, like the governement publications before it was an attempt to provide some guidance on this emotive issue of fire fighting equipment.

The National Fire Safety Committee at CFOA did not publish the circular without being aware of the strength of feeling around the country. The argument was had and a decision was made.

It appears, short of the angel Gabriel himself publishing definitive guidance, that some will never accept it.

Chris Houston

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2008, 07:43:40 PM »
Quote from: val
The CFOA circular, like the governement publications before it was an attempt to provide some guidance on this emotive issue of fire fighting equipment.
Do you have a link to the circular, or can someone send me a copy?

Offline jokar

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« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2008, 08:34:45 PM »
Lets make this about choice and not about prescription.  Through choice I have no Ffe in my home, I do have detection.  I have seen many wrong choices with people trying to fight fire and losing their lives or being injured.  I have seen the aftermath of someone putting water on a chip pan and of many litres of dry powder and the mess it makes and then reignition because of the lack of cooling.

FRS have for years said get out get the fire brigade out and that is the correct thing to do.  If someone makes a choice about having an extinguisher in their home so be it but to place them in common areas partucularly in sheltered housing projects is not a good choice.  Ok so forget the training but if someone uses one they put their life at risk, perhaps with no working knowledge or no knowledge of the dynamics of fire, worst still the effects of smoke and toxic fumes which could be minimal in the incipient stages of a fire but still deadly.  How many of us have had to call ambulance crews for smoke inhalation?  The point about sheltered housing is that peopel are normally aged and therefore move and think slower than the average 20 to 30 year old, use the extinguisher, it doesn't contain the fire and then they have to get out.  I am sorry but for me I would rather they went first and got the professional firefighters there.  Ater all, there is a bit of a side issue here and it is about whether this or any government wants a reactive firefighting service or whether like the HSE they go 60-40 in the proactive reactive arena.

Chris Houston

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2008, 09:03:27 PM »
If we can overlook the ability of the residents to fight a fire, can we consider then the people who work there, it is a work place for the carers, the contractors, the inspectors who go there, the management.  Do they not have a legal right to fire fighting aparatus?

Offline RFPS

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2008, 09:16:16 PM »
Going slightly off topic, last Christmas Day, I visited a residential hospital where a relative is a long term patient.  I had noticed as I had entered that there were lit candles on the decorated table which was awaiting the turkey and trimmings.  While I was in my relatives room, the firm alarm sounded and people started to shout.  I ran out to discover that the table was ablaze and the flames were close to setting the curtains on fire.  I ran to the nearest fire point, grabbed a 6 litre AFFF and luckily was able to extinguish the fire despite having problems getting the bent pin out!  The point I am making is that most of the residents were old and wheelchair bound.  It would have been difficult to evacuate them safely if the fire had spread.  I would argue that first aid FFE should be provided at residental locations.

Chris Houston

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2008, 09:28:32 PM »
Had you been trained? How ever did you know what to do you reckless crazy guy! :lol:

Offline RFPS

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2008, 09:34:11 PM »
Would have been embarrassing if the pin hadn't come out...!

Clevelandfire

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CFOA guidance on extinguishers for auditors
« Reply #44 on: July 06, 2008, 01:59:16 AM »
Quote from: Chris Houston
If we can overlook the ability of the residents to fight a fire, can we consider then the people who work there, it is a work place for the carers, the contractors, the inspectors who go there, the management.  Do they not have a legal right to fire fighting aparatus?
If youre an employee you should be generally trained on how to use extinguishers. if youre in a workforce of 300 who are on duty at any one time not all 300 need to be trained. But if there is on 1 to 3 of you id suggest all should be trained. Please please dont use the "is there a legal right" argument. There is a legal requirement to be trained but if youre not trained then dont use them.

That is the point me and quite a few others have been trying to make on this thread. If youre not trained and you do them at your own risk then you are extremely foolish.

How do you know when the fire is getting to big to deal with? how do you know whatever is on fire isnt giving off nasty toxic fumes which you cant see but can still get into your lungs.

But no its ok lets let little old Ida fight fire. Im sure she will be ok. Lets let untrained staff use extinguishers because surely they have a legal right... a human right...its ok if they die trying atleast tits their human right.

Jokar sums the argument up for me totally. If you are too shortsighted to realise getting out is the best option then i sincerely hope you never come across someone half dead through the effects of smoke inhalation and how it can ruin lives. Thats just if they live of course and before you ask me how many ive seen die through trying to fight fire and got overcome the answer is 4 people in 17 years operational firefighting - not many i hear chris houston cry compared with those who are lucky and arent hurt as his statistics tell him - well sorry thats 4 too many if you ask me unless you are saying thats an acceptable statistic of coure?. Even a seemingly harmless plastic refuse bin seems easy to deal with until you realise theres an empty aerosol can in there that the cleaner has chucked in when her spray has run out.

To suggest you would let the elderly fight fire i sperverse why on eath do you think front line firefighters are retired off at the age of 55?"oh lets give residents the option to fight fire if they want to"  Well you train them first then - and you see how many will be willing or intrested in turning up for it.I am absolutely disgusted and in disbelief of anyone who would want elderly residents regardless of how fit and able you think they are to fight fire. Get out of it. Evacuate dont put your life at risk. Is it really worth it? No of course it isnt. So what you loose a building I ask for the final time is it better to loose property than life?

When someone has a car crash what do friends and relatives always say " you can replace metal you cant replace life - thank goodness you are ok"