Author Topic: UK PROSECUTIONS  (Read 232474 times)

Offline K Lard

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #120 on: December 04, 2015, 09:11:40 AM »
A significant reason for this appears to have been a joint experts' report (by the Defendants' expert witness and the Prosecution expert witness) that, in their joint opinion, in the majority of the 7 charges, a breach of the FSO and consequent risk of death or serious injury in case of fire was not established by the prosecution evidence.
I don't suppose that the report is in the public domain?

Offline Mike Buckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #121 on: December 04, 2015, 10:08:12 AM »
This is a problem with the way the RRO is worded in that a breach of the Order only becomes an offense if there is a risk of serious injury or death which is a difficult concept to prove if nothing has happened. It is simple to prove if there has been a fire and people were injured or possibly died or had difficulty exiting the building but without such an incident it is a major issue.

I have been involved in two issues, one where a prosecution was in progress and the charges just stated that there was a risk of serous injury or death with no attempt to justify such a statement. In the other there had been a small fire in a hotel, the fire had been extinguished by the sprinkler system, the hotel had been safely evacuated with no injuries to anyone and a fire officer was getting very excited.

In the first issue the usual bargaining took place and the defendant pleaded guilty to one of the charges and the rest were dropped. In the second issue we had long discussions with the fire officer and wrote reams into the FRA for an incident where everything worked. Go figure!

This is going to be a difficult problem to solve particularly due to the way the legislation works and how it is worded. ADB, BS9999 etc. are only guides not actual legislation so the usual arguements can arise i.e. travel distance: if 18 m is ok why is 18.1 m not? The other issue is the skill, knowledge and experience of the enforcing officers whether or not they have the credibility to prove the issue in court.

To solve these issues it would probably require a revision of the Order and more and a consistant high quality of Enforcing Officer. Unfortunately I can't see either of these happening.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #122 on: December 05, 2015, 06:52:40 PM »
Lardy,  No not in the public domain at all.
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline K Lard

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 53
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #123 on: December 09, 2015, 02:58:52 PM »
Shame!

Offline Mike Buckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #124 on: February 04, 2016, 10:22:00 AM »
Lewisham

http://www.southlondon-today.co.uk/article.cfm?id=115929

I suppose this will get Colin going agian.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.

Offline Golden

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #125 on: February 04, 2016, 10:39:34 AM »
Even I was shocked by this report - Assistant Commissioner WTF!!


Offline JT

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 85
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #127 on: February 04, 2016, 05:48:08 PM »
http://nottstv.com/nottinghamshire-landlord-sentenced-ignoring-fire-warnings/

This premises had an L2 fire alarm, fd30s protected moe separate to the commercial area but the RP put a tumble dryer on the sleeping moe. FRA flagged it, RP didn't move it, it caught fire with employees trapped on the 2nd floor.

Offline colin todd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3473
  • Civilianize enforcement -you know it makes sense.
    • http://www.cstodd.co.uk
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #128 on: February 04, 2016, 07:56:23 PM »
Silver, you have lost me.  What were you shocked about?????

Michael, why would it get me going???
Colin Todd, C S Todd & Associates

Offline Golden

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #129 on: February 04, 2016, 08:12:50 PM »
Personal  ;D I know the AC  :o :o :o

Offline Mike Buckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #130 on: February 05, 2016, 09:17:06 AM »
Colin, any mention of LFB usually does.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #131 on: February 05, 2016, 10:17:50 AM »
Yes Mike but my theory is that it's a smokescreen to cover his unrequited love. I often read about this sort of thing in my Mills and Boon subscription.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #132 on: February 05, 2016, 10:26:51 AM »
Many housing associations use this technique to secure void flats. The main flat fire door at the entrance is covered externally by a steel door within its own outer frame. The steel frame clamps onto  and hooks around the flats fire door frame which creates a secure concealed fixing but in doing so prevents the fire door from closing fully onto its rebates. The resulting gap is usually about 50-75mm. Very often the fire doors so covered have also been vandalised and tenancy rules often prevent rapid action being taken to clear the flat. One would hope and expect all services to be disconnected in a void flat but you cannot rely on this.

Something that needs to be publicised throughout the housing sector.

Offline jayjay

  • New Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 278
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #133 on: April 18, 2016, 07:09:13 PM »
 Tyne and Wear Fire and Rescue Service

Date24 March 2016

 380,000 pound fine

imposed on Shaftesbury Care Group Ltd

Donwell House Care Home in Washington.

See link for more details

http://www.twfire.gov.uk/news/news/?entryid67=83535
« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 07:10:59 PM by jayjay »

Offline Golden

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
Re: UK PROSECUTIONS
« Reply #134 on: April 19, 2016, 10:39:32 AM »
Another 'almost Rosepark revisited' incident. What is the point of an FRA if they're not going to carry out the actions - the care groups or management companies have to learn given the ever growing elderly population and the huge increase in care homes. For information I've looked up this site and its a 2 storey purpose built home probably 90s build or maybe even later - so no excuses with respect to inherent fire safety provisions and this is all down to poor management. This happened at 6.30pm when I'd assume that there was a decent compliment of staff on duty and many of the occupiers were in lounges, etc. - good job it wasn't overnight. Good report from local paper - http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/pensioner-treated-hospital-after-washington-7768844