Author Topic: B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation  (Read 102504 times)

Offline nearlythere

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #90 on: August 13, 2008, 10:35:06 AM »
Quote from: CivvyFSO
Quote from: swaapc
Has anyone asked the customer if they want the level of safety the fire service is trying to obtain for them.  Are they willing to pay for it?
Sorry but I couldn't resist this one.

Punter: "Can I have a room please?"

Swaapc: "Certainly sir. I just need to inform you that we do not believe in making the premises safe in the event of a fire. In the event of a fire in our lounge, the antique sofa will go like the clappers, trapping you in your room behind a door that is unlikely to survive more than 5 minutes of fire. But no matter because the smoke will have killed you by then, and you won't even be stressed about it because we have no smoke alarms to wake you from your slumber.... That will be £50 per person with breakfast included.
"However, for an extra £10 - £15 pppn, I know a B&B operator who has upgraded his premises in line with current fire safety standards to help ensure patrons have a safe and enjoyable overnight stay. We use it all the time."
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Davo

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #91 on: August 13, 2008, 10:50:18 AM »
swaapc

I have no connection with FRS, so can I ask have you ever seen a fire at first hand?
My neighbour (under the weather shall we say) caused a gas cooker blast due to his fag.
I heard the blast and ran out instantly (Nosey)
He staggered out, I looked in and saw flames reaching up the wall say about two feet.
My obvious concern was with him and getting Mrs Davo to dial 999.
The kitchen was gutted in under two minutes, the whole house apart from the roof in under nine and it cost the insurer £120K and six months to put right. (Five years ago)
He was only in the house ten seconds but spent two weeks in hospital with smoke inhalation and burns to hands and face
The brigade came in 9.5 mins (5 miles) broke in big time and put the fire out in a couple of minutes.

Come to some agreement. Yes they shouldn't have come mob handed but they have been told to crack down on sleeping accomodation, I know because our hostel has had two visits this month and thats what they told me.


davo

ps Prof, what do you mean tried to fall asleep, constantly banging my head against brick walls keeps me well awake!

Offline Chris

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #92 on: August 13, 2008, 11:12:07 AM »
Swaapc. When people contact you to book in do you read them a list of the fire safety measures which are not provided and advise them that by staying in the premises they are exposed to a higher risk for fire than if they stayed in a B&B with all the neccessary fire safety measures provided.
I would give you some support if this was the case but I have a feeling you would be out of business very shortly.


I would welcome this approach with open arms -  In fact I asked the Fire officer if it was an approach I could use.  If the fire service or other expert were to provide me with an agreed risk assessment (with the probability of a fire in our establishment) outlining the fire risks to our customers then I would gladly ask every customer to sign that they accepted the risk before arriving.  Guess what - I have a feeling every guest we have would sign it.  You forget that people can make their own judgments.  They don’t need a nanny state to help them cross a road.

Regarding the gentleman who would like me “to tell the family or friends of a person who dies in your B&B” – That is just pure alarmism and not a worthy comment from someone in your profession.  Of course I wouldn’t but let’s look at the odds of me having to do so.  As stated before I am far more likely to have to do so after I have had a road accident.

“I wouldnt tell you how to run a B&B dont tell me how to be a fire safety officer.” – That’s the point you are telling me how to run my B&B.  We have always had a ‘duty of care’ to our customers and we are very proud of the level of care and safety we provide. And our customers respond by coming back time and time again.  Are you telling them that they can’t decide their own safety.  That is very arrogant.

Chris Houston

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #93 on: August 13, 2008, 11:20:48 AM »
Quote from: swaapc
If the fire service or other expert were to provide me with an agreed risk assessment (with the probability of a fire in our establishment) outlining the fire risks to our customers then I would gladly ask every customer to sign that they accepted the risk before arriving.  Guess what - I have a feeling every guest we have would sign it.
Risk is a combination of probability and severity.  The probability may be low, but the consequences can be high.  To understand the risk, you must balance both factors.

Offline nearlythere

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #94 on: August 13, 2008, 11:52:28 AM »
Quote from: swaapc
Swaapc. When people contact you to book in do you read them a list of the fire safety measures which are not provided and advise them that by staying in the premises they are exposed to a higher risk for fire than if they stayed in a B&B with all the neccessary fire safety measures provided.
I would give you some support if this was the case but I have a feeling you would be out of business very shortly.


I would welcome this approach with open arms -  In fact I asked the Fire officer if it was an approach I could use.  If the fire service or other expert were to provide me with an agreed risk assessment (with the probability of a fire in our establishment) outlining the fire risks to our customers then I would gladly ask every customer to sign that they accepted the risk before arriving.  Guess what - I have a feeling every guest we have would sign it.  You forget that people can make their own judgments.  They don’t need a nanny state to help them cross a road.

Regarding the gentleman who would like me “to tell the family or friends of a person who dies in your B&B” – That is just pure alarmism and not a worthy comment from someone in your profession.  Of course I wouldn’t but let’s look at the odds of me having to do so.  As stated before I am far more likely to have to do so after I have had a road accident.

“I wouldnt tell you how to run a B&B dont tell me how to be a fire safety officer.” – That’s the point you are telling me how to run my B&B.  We have always had a ‘duty of care’ to our customers and we are very proud of the level of care and safety we provide. And our customers respond by coming back time and time again.  Are you telling them that they can’t decide their own safety.  That is very arrogant.
They can only decide their own safety if they are aware of the risk. People normally expect to be in an environment safe from the risk of fire when they stay in a hotel or B&B or go into a shop, cinema or pub etc. It is a normal and reasonable expectation.
Do people actually ask you Swaapc what the risk to their person is in relation to the fire precautions you have or have not provided?

No one is telling you how to run a B&B. We are just trying to ensure that when people stay in B&Bs they can do so safely. We want to make sure they can go back to you next year.
We're not Brazil we're Northern Ireland.

Midland Retty

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #95 on: August 13, 2008, 11:55:46 AM »
Quote from: Swaapc
Are you telling them that they can’t decide their own safety.  That is very arrogant.
Hi Swaapc

By your logic we shouldn't have seatbelts in cars, we shouldn't have speed limits or any other measure in existence designed to keep us from harm.

Infact your logic says that I could go to an amusement park and be told something as absurd as:

 "Welcome to the Hairy Scary roller coaster ride Sir.... Its up to you if you want the safety bar down to stop you from falling out....However we do not want to come across as arrogant or onerous so its up to you if you want to be secured in properly..... by the way we haven't maintained this ride for 4 years and its very rusty with a few bolts missing.... but should be ok. Just sign this disclaimer to say Ive told you this is a death trap if you would."

As Chris said you fail to grasp the point that whilst the likelyhood of you having a fire in your B&B is low the consequences if it did occur could be most severe. (i.e. fatalities)

It is not arrogance or the workings of a perceived nanny state to expect people to be kept safe from fire.

To challenge your argument further, your customers may agree to take a risk yet they cant decide on their own safety because they arent qualified to assess the risk. Plus those guest cant take control of what goes on in your B&B.

Therefore they are defacto put at more risk by the actions of others, or they may put others at risk.

You make money from running a B&B. You do it for reward so there is a duty of care issue here. I seriously doubt your guests knowing the full facts and not just the half truth version would be comfortable in stopping in a B&B with substandard fire precautions when there is one down the road which is fully compliant.
 
There is no getting away from the fact you must comply with the RRO. I agree Fire Safety Inspectors must approach each property with a balanced and proportionate view but a "my guests sign a disclaimer so i dont have to comply" regime isn't an option.

Offline FSO

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #96 on: August 13, 2008, 12:01:55 PM »
Quote from: Chris Houston
Quote from: swaapc
If the fire service or other expert were to provide me with an agreed risk assessment (with the probability of a fire in our establishment) outlining the fire risks to our customers then I would gladly ask every customer to sign that they accepted the risk before arriving.  Guess what - I have a feeling every guest we have would sign it.
Risk is a combination of probability and severity.  The probability may be low, but the consequences can be high.  To understand the risk, you must balance both factors.
And actually know what you are talking about!

How could you expect somebody to make a judgement on the fire safety with little or no knowledge.

I find it quite insulting that my years of training and experience are being brought into question of validity.

Accept that running a business has consequences.

Im sure the taxman will be just as leaniant with his approach when your taxcode changes just because you dont like like it and it costs you a bit more money.

Offline CivvyFSO

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #97 on: August 13, 2008, 01:17:29 PM »
Quote from: swaapc
Regarding the gentleman who would like me “to tell the family or friends of a person who dies in your B&B” – That is just pure alarmism and not a worthy comment from someone in your profession.
You may find that a number of people here have, as part of their profession, had to stand in a box in a coroners court with the friends and family of the deceased looking at them expecting a good reason why they have lost a loved one. If the premises has poor standards someone like myself may be there to point out what the standards should have been and the actual standards that were found in situ, it would be then up to the owner to explain (With the family still looking on) why their premises didn't meet the requirements. This is not alarmist, this is what happens.

Regardless of the odds, unless you can say that having a fire is impossible then it will happen somewhere, it is only a matter of time. Lets just hope it doesn't happen in one like yours.

One good thing will come out of this, at least the B&B trade is looking at fire safety, as it clearly seems to have been something that has been overlooked, hence the 'uproar'.

Offline Galeon

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #98 on: August 13, 2008, 01:34:32 PM »
Having read all this thread , and its been a good one , I am sure a lot of B&B's will eventually implode upon itself.
With comments coming in from outside the fire trade , as I have viewed will only steer people away to major chains . Their industry knew changes were coming , and this has affected the whole of the country, as we know.
Its time to make a counter attack !

Offline Chris

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #99 on: August 13, 2008, 06:53:22 PM »
When I did the business case for this business 5 years ago the biggest risk I identified was government intervention.  Guess what I was absolutely correct.  I hadn’t identified what would happen but it was clear 5 years ago with the way things were heading with the nanny state that they would hit us some how.

Just bear in mind that at the moment in this area (and possibly others) the Health and Safety departments (including fire service enforcement) are almost held in ridicule (which is wrong as the fire service does a magnificent job and society is in their debt).  For instance when guests visit our neighbours B&B and see the fire escape (‘for their safety’) and are told why it is there they are initially incredulous and then bemused – Why?. Ah but you say – they won’t be laughing when they want to use it when there is a fire.  Absolutely correct.  The problem is that the probability of a fire there is so low it is superfluous and over the top.  This is just one example of the madness of our current health and safety philosophy that brings the whole serious business into disrepute.

I would like to point out that most of us B&B owners are not money grabbing mercenaries as some of you have suggested.  For instance we rented our rooms out to enable us to afford to live in a beautiful part of the country.  Along with our other business we work 7 days a week 364 days a year (we have Xmas day off) and usually work 12-14 hours a day.  Our income last year put us on about £5 per hour (less than we pay our cleaners).  We don’t get a state pension, we don’t get sick leave, we don’t get maternity leave, we don’t get 3,4,5 weeks paid holiday a year, in fact the last time I had more than a day off (Xmas day) was 6 years ago.  We are not asking for sympathy, it is our choice. I am just stating facts.  We use to enjoy running our B&B even if the profits were small. In return people use to love coming here.

Who will volunteer to take e-mails from all the guests we are now turning away.  I am sure most of them would be quite glad to give you their thoughts on the matter.  At the moment I am giving them the e-mail addresses of the Fire Safety Minister and the DCLG Fire Safety Policy Team and suggesting they pass on the same comments as they are giving me.

If you believe that people will pay an extra £10 a night for a small B&B that has all the required fire precautions against one that doesn’t, you don’t understand the British public.  

As I am obviously getting no further with this one-sided argument and the Law is the Law and we will be following it (by closing), this will be my last post.  I think it is just such a shame that a part of our society will be lost over the next few years due to over zealous rules and regulations (not just fire).  It’s a sad indictment of society in general and the path we seem to have trod over the last few years.  

I am grateful to all of you for an insight into your world (its not a world I wish to live in but that, at the moment, is my choice).  I hope I have given you a small understanding of my world.  My feeling is that the level of health and safety in ‘this country’ has now gone too far (for society at the moment) and there is likely to be a significance backlash in the coming years.  I may be wrong. I just hope for my sanity, others in small businesses and the next generation’s sanity that I am not.  People in the Health and Safety Industry seem to have forgotten that we humans have been managing Risk at an individual level for 0000’s of years.  We may need help here and there, and there are things that have been introduced over the years that have saved a lot of our lives (seat belts in cars, better fire retardant furniture etc). Tinkering at the edges as we seem to be doing at the moment is just damaging our society not saving any major number of lives.  What are the big killers?  Let’s address them better. The problem is, do we have the political will to do so?  Tinkering at the edges has little or no political fall-out but makes governments look as though they are doing something. Resolving the big issues comes with big political headaches and is therefore put to one side.

Please note that all my comments have been about small B&B’s. That is homes that have less than three letting rooms (which were exempt under the old rules).

My final heart felt plea is - Please let us run our own lives but be there when we need you (a contradiction which I am sure you will all ridicule).

Bye and thank you again for this insight.

Chris Houston

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #100 on: August 13, 2008, 07:44:11 PM »
It's great to see people from industry join the site and state their case in a logical and straight forward manner.

I work for an insurance broker and am therefore neither in industry not in the fire service camp.  I think I can say from a neutral point of view in this debate that the fire service do actaully seem to understand the problems that small business face, but I don't see the industry demonstrating the same level of understanding of the fire services objectives.

All this "it is low risk", "it is a superfolous risk" is what most non experts think until they have experienced fires.  Fires in domestic scenarios (which B&Bs claim to be) are the biggest fire risk in the UK.  I'm not sure what industry wants (except to be exempt from fire safety rules) but I can't help but thing a risk based approach is exactly what they would be crying out for, had it not been the case.

Offline Ricardo

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #101 on: August 13, 2008, 07:45:29 PM »
I just cannot believe that anyone would believe that the risks within their own homes are so low that it would obviate the need for some form of fire detection to be provided, the installation of a Grade D detection system in the home/b&b, would surely not be any more in terms of upheaval, labour and cost than the installation of some extra lights and sockets.
As a parent would you not be reluctant or concerned about your children staying overnight at a friends house, where you knew there was smokers in the house, and no smoke alarm installed, I would.

Graeme

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #102 on: August 13, 2008, 07:52:08 PM »
Quote from: swaapc
"
  I am a B&B customer and am happy with the fire safety in every small B&B I have ever stayed in.  I am not an expert but I am over 21 and can make my own judgment on risk without a government telling me.

".
Want a job??

That's amazing as i have worked on fire systems since i left School but i cannot yet tell if a smoke detector works by looking at it.

I was at a B&B on Tuesday and to me it looked like a normal good well managed system until i looked at the panel. It was silenced but not reset as a detector kept going into alarm.

As you have quite sound knowledge on fire systems ,you will know that a non addressable fire panel with an activated zone-silenced but not reset cannot trigger into alarm again until it has been reset,rendering the rest of that zone useless.

This happened THREE monts ago and he had guests staying everynight without fire cover for that period....

To the unaware they would see the smoke detector in their room and feel safe....

SWAAPC- if you could see what i see i would bet my wages you would retract your bold statement..  I would be happy staying in B+B's on the ground floor with a room with it's own exit door.

Offline Izan FSO

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #103 on: August 13, 2008, 08:48:36 PM »
Quote from: swaapc
For instance when guests visit our neighbours B&B and see the fire escape (‘for their safety’) and are told why it is there they are initially incredulous and then bemused – Why?. Ah but you say – they won’t be laughing when they want to use it when there is a fire.  Absolutely correct.  The problem is that the probability of a fire there is so low it is superfluous and over the top.  This is just one example of the madness of our current health and safety philosophy that brings the whole serious business into disrepute.
swaapc
Im sorry you say that you have placed your last post because i think it is great to have a debate with someone from the industry to see where they are coming from but i hope you continue to read the posts.

I dont know the property that has put the external escape up but i bet as an inspecting officer i can hazard a guess why. does this farmhouse B&B have a single staircase that terminates in the middle of the house? probably the big cottage kitchen with a wood burning stove in the corner? if it does, then that is why an alternative is needed for the small numbers of people upstairs so they can get out of the premises and not have to pass through the room that is on fire.

Also in reply to a couple of other posts about why two inspecting officers turn up at small B&Bs...its not to intimidate its for the protection of our staff. on a number of occasions we have had to send another officer because of verbal abuse and threatening behaviour of the quaint B&B owners who dont like the fact that we are there to carry out our job.....Talk about shoot the messenger. All FRS have a duty of care to their staff look on brigades web sites for their poicies on abusive calls and behaviour, that may give indications about the numbers of people attending premises. i would think all FRS that carry out Home Fire Safety Risk Assessments send in crews of two for that reason being threatened in the home is not unusual.

Offline Galeon

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B & B's in Uproar over new fire legislation
« Reply #104 on: August 13, 2008, 09:05:07 PM »
I presume that if us boys were posting on the main B & B forum site , that we would also receive the same level of decorum that these members have afforded.
Its time to make a counter attack !