MCP locations;

[Psuedonym]

Having visited a city centre theatre recently to carry out some Ansul training for the staff, I went through the basics of actions to be carried out in the event of a fire.
All went well until call point activation was mentioned. There weren't any within the basement level (where the kitchen was located) and there was one exit - the stairwell access up to ground level. Why would an MCP not be fitted in such a vunerable area?
The kitchen entry/exit led to a common area with 3 doors to enclosed rooms (One being the kitchen the other two small meeting rooms).
The fourth door which led to the stairs was double lined with intumescent strips. Is that sufficient fire protection?
Once I pointed out the lack of means of raising the alarm the staff were obviously concerned. What could the reasons be for ommitting MCP's within this basement area?

[Chris Houston]

What could the reasons be for ommitting MCP's within this basement area?

........Foolishness?

[AnthonyB]

Are there any other elements of a fire alarm system there - sounders, AFD? Was the system put in before the kitchen existed, i.e. when the area was an empty shell?

I've sometimes found areas missed as their existence wasn't known, or they were a shell at the time of the main install.

Can't see why no MCP unless they are going purely on the 45m rule and nothing else, or they just forgot!

[Chris Houston]

Can't see why no MCP unless they are going purely on the 45m rule and nothing else, or they just forgot!

.........but even then, should there not be one on each level.  Or at zones changes and zones can't span 2 levels.

[kurnal]

Hi Pseudonym- sorry I have forgotten your other name.
Yes manual call points should undoubtedly have been fitted in this location in order to comply with BS5839 part 1.
I sometimes find that on refit of a kitchen or shop they become boxed in by stainless steel sheeting in kitchens  or displays in shops, the fitter often just mentions it to the owner who promptly forgets to do anything about it. In such circumstances technically somebody is breaking the law.  I would suggest that the owner asks his alarm maintenance contractor why he has not raised it on service visits?

As for the door, this will be a fire compartment door which often are of increased fire resistance- 1 or 2 hours are common- and due to their increased thickness and requirement for additional fire resistance will have multiple fire seals. They may not have smoke seals- these tend to be for life safety rather than property protection

[Wiz]

.........but even then, should there not be one on each level.  Or at zones changes and zones can't span 2 levels.

BS5839 Part 1 2002 has no recommendation for MCP at boundaries of detection zones.

A single detection zone can 'span 2 levels' if the total floor area of the building is less than 300m2

[Chris Houston]

OK point taken.  Although it begs the question: "is the total floor area of the building less than 300m2"?

[kurnal]

It would be a small theatre then if less than 300m2
And as this area contains a kitchen, the normal travel distance of 45m to the call point may be expected to be reduced- and perhaps a call point even sited in the kitchen depending on size and nature- clause 20.2.f refers to these situations.

[Wiz]

There is no doubt that there should be a MCP located in the 'common area' of the basement or, at a push, at the bottom of the staircase to provide a means of raising a fire warning from the users of any of the rooms described. Also, as the prof. quite rightly points out, the kitchen, being a location identified in 20.2.f, should also have a MCP. This kitchen MCP might have a non-glass frangible element to avoid contamination of food by glass fragments.
I do not have sufficient knowledge to answer the second part of the question which asks about the fire resistance of the door leading to the staircase.

[AnthonyB]

My comment was based on the installer only knowing parts of the BS and thus purely applying those bits - we have all seen installs by people that don't know what they are doing and not just in small premises.

[Psuedonym]

Thanks to All,

There are 2 SD's throughout the basement level, one in the kitchen one the common area (with separate sounder in this section).

The kitchen has a fire resistant door to common area with standard doors out (food via dumbell to ground level cafe) to common area - with meeting rooms off. The travel distance I guess is approx 35M from rear of kitchen to fire resistant stairwell door (common area to base of stairwell), then up two stair flights and (via swing doors) to MCP hidden in the rear of the bar area 4' from the deck at a distance of approx 40Mtr from swing doors at the top of the stairs.
No names of service co. (who may have issued fault reports regarding this) nor installer, I just needed a bit of clarification that I wasn't cracking up!

Thanks again guys

[Wiz]

Thanks to All,

There are 2 SD's throughout the basement level, one in the kitchen one the common area (with separate sounder in this section).

A smoke detector in the kitchen?

[Steven N]

Thanks to All,

There are 2 SD's throughout the basement level, one in the kitchen one the common area (with separate sounder in this section).

A smoke detector in the kitchen?

Please no!!!!!!

[Psuedonym]

No sorry guys just rushing a bit! A Heat obviously! Still knowing this lot you just never know....

[Graeme]

Thanks to All,

There are 2 SD's throughout the basement level, one in the kitchen one the common area (with separate sounder in this section).

A smoke detector in the kitchen?

why not Wiz..

I have never set one off with a Pot Noodle yet..