Author Topic: De Punt fire Netherlands  (Read 8630 times)

Offline Peter R

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
De Punt fire Netherlands
« on: August 06, 2008, 06:07:41 PM »
For some reason there has been little coverage in the UK of the fire on May 9th 2008 in De Punt, Netherlands in which three firemen died during fire-fighting operations at an industrial building at a boat yard. These were the first firefighter fatalities in the Netherlands for 5 years. I think the tragedy may  have some relevance to concerns about wide spread use of sandwich panels with combustible foam plastic insulation cores.

The roof of the building was constructed from  sandwich panels made of two steel sheets filled up with insulating material of approx. 90 mm polyurethane foam

The municipal authority requested the Nederlandse Vereniging voor Brandweerzorg en Rampenbestrijding [Dutch association for fire service and disaster relief] to form an independent Committee of enquiry.

According to reports in the Dutch press the investigative committee led by professor of crisis management Ira Helsloot concluded that the entrance door to the building, which had been swivelled upwards, must have blocked the view of the roof. That is where an enormous cloud of yellow-brown smoke would have been hanging in the air. Immediately after the firefighters entered there was a flashover, turning the entire main section of the interior into a sea of fire. The heat, the enormous shock wave, and the lack of oxygen proved fatal.

The Committee of enquiry has not given an opinion on the exact fire cause but its conclusions have caused real disputes between interested parties.

“The sandwich panels used for the roof construction meet the legal requirements for this type of building with regard to the flammability and/or fire development. However, they do bring a huge danger. When heated the polyurethane will produce gases and smoke which may lead to an unexpected and quick spread of fire. Although the dangers of sandwich constructions have been previously acknowledged during fire  testing they are not known throughout the fire service. “

“The Committee of enquiry concludes that during the first minutes the polyurethane from the roof construction was the main fuel for the fire”

“The release of gases by the insulation materials used in sandwich panels is a well-known phenomenon, but there is a lack of knowledge in this regard among firefighters, acccording to the Helsloot Committee. This aspect is also not covered in the training for firefighters. According to Helsloot, forbidding the use of sandwich panels is not a useful option. Fire brigades should therefore make a habit, in principle, of fighting fires in industrial buildings only from the outside.”

As I stated at the start of this post – perhaps there is a connection to UK events.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2008, 07:14:05 PM »
Quote from: Peter R
The Committee of enquiry has not given an opinion on the exact fire cause but its conclusions have caused real disputes between interested parties.

“The sandwich panels used for the roof construction meet the legal requirements for this type of building with regard to the flammability and/or fire development. However, they do bring a huge danger. When heated the polyurethane will produce gases and smoke which may lead to an unexpected and quick spread of fire. Although the dangers of sandwich constructions have been previously acknowledged during fire  testing they are not known throughout the fire service. “

“The Committee of enquiry concludes that during the first minutes the polyurethane from the roof construction was the main fuel for the fire”

“The release of gases by the insulation materials used in sandwich panels is a well-known phenomenon, but there is a lack of knowledge in this regard among firefighters, acccording to the Helsloot Committee.
Do we know hw many of the filling materials give rise to this hazard? Is it common to all on initial heating- EPS, PIR, PUR?

Do we know what the breakdown products are?

I'm a bit out of touch with operational matters since retiring but its good to know so we can advise architects of issues from a fire fighters perspective

Offline John Webb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2008, 10:37:24 PM »
There was a lot going on at Fire Research on "Large Panel systems" about the time I retired in 1997.

A look at www.bre.co.uk might be of assistance.
John Webb
Consultant on Fire Safety, Diocese of St Albans
(Views expressed are my own)

Offline jayjay

  • New Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 278
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2008, 12:33:12 PM »
The fire risk of Sandwich panels was very topical in the UK some time ago if my memory serves me right.
When involved in fire the steel panels where known to delaminate and fall away again I seem to remember it possibly causing fire fighter deaths but I would need to check my old  files.

The panels were often used in food processing premises for hygiene  and insulation. The surface spread of flame was satisfactory but the insulation foam was flammable. If panels were damaged fire could spread into the foam or in a severe fire adjacent the outer sheet could delaminate exposing the  foam

Guidance was issued to fire brigades if I can find more I will post here.


Just found a link which may help

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/fire/doc/158373.doc

Offline Shand

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2008, 12:35:37 PM »
Do we know if this fire involved a mezzanine? I've done quite a bit of CFD modelling on large warehouses with mezzanines and I've noticed a phenomenon where the under mezzanine space behaves like a compartment with limited ventilation. It produces huge amounts of unburned pyrolysis products which later ignite in a rolling flame front across the whole space. I'm studying it for my BEng dissertation this year so it might be useful to know also whether the dutch applied any modelling techniques during the investigation. I know some courts in the UK don't like CFD as evidence. Any links to further info would be hugely appreciated.

Offline jayjay

  • New Member
  • Sr. Member
  • *
  • Posts: 278
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2008, 01:36:30 PM »
I have now found a copy of a 1999 document entitled Firefighting Operations for fires involving Sandwich Panels which was published as a result of the growing concern of fires involving the panels and gives details of a number of incidents.

There is also guidance in Approved Document B Appendix F

Remember things have moved on since 1999 and there are now Loss Prevention Standards available plus others .

At the risk of being bombarded with requests email me if you need a copy of the   Firefighting Operations document.

Offline Mike Buckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2008, 12:57:14 PM »
It seems to me that the incident was not a flashover but was a backdraft. Ok I know it sounds like nit picking but the mechanisms of the two phenomena are different and this effects the method of attacking the fire.

If I remember correctly the issue of sandwich panels hit the headlines when Fleur from Hereford and Worcester became the first female fire fighter to be killed on duty tackeling a ifer in a building constructed in this way.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2008, 05:43:03 PM »
Quote from: Mike Buckley
It seems to me that the incident was not a flashover but was a backdraft. Ok I know it sounds like nit picking but the mechanisms of the two phenomena are different and this effects the method of attacking the fire.

If I remember correctly the issue of sandwich panels hit the headlines when Fleur from Hereford and Worcester became the first female fire fighter to be killed on duty tackeling a ifer in a building constructed in this way.
Now Mike you'd better  go and take a few more pills  and a lie down. Your memory is playing tricks on you.

Fleur Lombard was working in Avon and she sadly died in the fire at Leos store.


The Tragic fire in H&W that killed two firefighters was at Sun Valley Foods and involved EPS panels.

http://www.epsconstructiongroup.co.uk/pdfs/sunvalley.pdf

Offline William 29

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 581
    • http://www.tfsltd.net
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2008, 10:17:16 PM »
Try the link below, there is also a new Fire Safety Order Guide you can download

http://www.epic.uk.com/fire_tests.jsp

Offline kurnal

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6489
    • http://www.peakland-fire-safety.co.uk
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2008, 08:16:13 AM »
Thanks William - that is a most interesting link.

Offline Mike Buckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2008, 03:32:31 PM »
Ok kurnal I'll ask matron when she comes round, by the way who is matron?
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.

Chris Houston

  • Guest
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2008, 03:35:05 PM »
Quote from: Mike Buckley
Ok kurnal I'll ask matron when she comes round, by the way who is matron?
The Stig's mum.

Offline Peter R

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2008, 09:00:00 PM »
Mike
The investigation view is that it was a flashover and that the roof panels were the initial fuel for the fire. The fire developed very quickly according to local media. This is some local reporting:

Source: www.blikop112.nl Published: 12-5-2008

Chronological summary of the fire in De Punt

De Punt / Tynaarlo - A chronological summary of the recent events on Friday 9 May during which three firefighters from the Eelde fire brigade died in a fire at a shipyard on the Groningerstraat in De Punt.

The fire alarm centre for Groningen received the first report of an indoor fire on the Groningerstraat in De Punt. Geographically, De Punt is quite close to the area covered by the province of Groningen, which is probably why the report was first received in Groningen. The fire alarm centre for Groningen immediately sent the report on to the fire alarm centre for the province of Drenthe in Assen.

2:10 p.m. The fire brigade stationed in Eelde receives a report of an indoor fire on the Groningerstraat in De Punt.

2:17 p.m. The first fire engine from the Eelde fire station arrives on the scene. A great deal of smoke is visible, and the fire is immediately upgraded to a ‘medium-sized fire’. There are not yet any flames visible from the outside.

The officer in charge orders two teams (4 firefighters) to carry out an initial investigation of the building’s interior. Four firefighters equipped with gas masks enter the building with a high pressure water jet and an infrared camera. At a certain point in time, one of the four has to leave the building, as the fire hose taken inside becomes stuck somewhere. Immediately after he leaves the building, an intense fire suddenly fills the entire building accompanied by a very large amount of smoke.

2:21 p.m. It becomes clear that firefighters are missing. The officer in charge has already deployed all his men (TS Eelde) and can therefore not initiate a rescue operation to search for his colleagues. The crew of the fire engine dispatched in response to a ‘medium-sized fire’ alarm is immediately deployed to search for the missing firefighters.

2:23 p.m. The Officer on Duty, who is on his way to the fire, has been informed of the missing firefighters and upgrades the situation to ‘very large fire.’

2:25 p.m. The incident is classified as a GRIP 1 situation. As a result, a command post is set up on site to coordinate the deployment of a multidisciplinary team.

2:28 p.m. An order is given by the command post to deploy teams to measure the concentration of harmful substances in the smoke in the surroundings.

2:30 p.m. The incident is classified as a GRIP 2 situation. As a result, a regional operational team is established and takes over control from the on-site command post.

3:15 p.m. The incident is upgraded to GRIP 3. As a result, a municipal action team is also established. The reason for this is that it has become absolutely clear that three firefighters are missing.

7:18 p.m. The ‘fire under control’ signal is given.

9 p.m. Seats of the fire under control (i.e. extinguished).

Source: Cobouw - http://www.cobouw.nl/cobouw/nieuws/toonnieuwsartikel.jsp?di=424842 Published on 25-6-2008

Sandwich panels surprise firefighters

TYNAARLO - Due to the risk of gases escaping from sandwich panels, fires in industrial buildings should be fought only from the outside, according to the committee which investigated the fire in De Punt in which three firefighters died in the beginning of May.

The fire started in the meter cupboard in the back of a large industrial building used for maintenance activities on yachts and cars. A few minutes after the alarm was sounded, the fire brigade arrived on the scene and yellow-brown smoke was seen escaping from the back of the building, which collected and remain visible at a low level. This was why the fire brigade originally decided not to enter the building to fight the fire.

However, the picture looked different ones they arrived in front of the building. The wind was blowing hard into the main interior of the building, giving the firefighters a good view of the rear wall. They therefore decided to nevertheless enter the main section of the interior, armed with a high pressure water hose.

Looking back on the events, the investigative committee led by professor of crisis management Ira Helsloot concluded that the entrance door to the building, which had been swivelled upwards, must have blocked the view of the roof. That is where an enormous cloud of yellow-brown smoke would have been hanging in the air. Immediately after the firefighters entered, the fire suddenly expanded, turning the entire main section of the interior into a sea of fire. The heat, the enormous shock wave, and the lack of oxygen proved fatal.

Flash-over
The roof of the 75 m long structure consisted of steel sandwich panels with a 9 cm thick core of polyurethane foam. According to the investigators, as is also the case for polystyrene, this type of material releases gases upon being heated. The gases released contain ammonia, hydrocyanic acid, and nitrous compounds. The latter have a characteristic yellow-brown colour. If the concentration exceeds a certain level, these gases can be ignited by a spark and cause a flash-over. If the polyurethane foam itself starts burning, it produces a cloud of greasy black smoke.

Insufficient knowledge
The release of gases by the insulation materials used in sandwich panels is a well-known phenomenon among materials researchers, but there is a lack of knowledge in this regard among firefighters, acccording to the Helsloot Committee. This aspect is also not covered in the training for firefighters. According to Helsloot, forbidding the use of sandwich panels is not a useful option. Fire brigades should therefore make a habit, in principle, of fighting fires in industrial buildings only from the outside.

In comparison to Netherlands we have more 'sheds' with sandwich panels with  combustible plastic foam cores. Shouldn't DCLG, CFOA, FBU looking at what can be learnt?

Offline Mike Buckley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1045
De Punt fire Netherlands
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 04:53:51 PM »
Peter,

The FRDG did look at this and produced a Report in 1997 entitiled "Fire Safety of Sandwich Panels". I found it by Googling 'Sandwich Panels' they are commonly refered to as LISP over here.

Much as I hate to disagree with experts I am still of the opinion that it was not a 'flashover'. Flashovers occur when there is a layer of very hot gases at ceiling level and the radiated heat from this layer is sufficient to heat materials below the layer to their spontaneous ignition temperature. Whereas there is a dramatic increase in the amount of fire it is not explosive.

Backdrafts are a different matter, here there is concentration of flammable gases usually at a temperature above their spontaneous ignition temperature.  These gases are not on fire because there is insufficient oxygen for them to burn, in effect they are above their higher explosive limit. Once oxygen is admitted the concentration drops into the explosive area and the gas cloud explodes. Normally this occurs when the door or window to a room is opened allowing air in.

However I could see a situation where the hot gases form an oxygen deficient  layer in the roof of a building especially a high one. In circumstances like this I could see nothing happening until the gas layer is disturbed as could happen when the door is opened and firefighters enter the building. Then when the mixing occurs the backdraft could be started either by an ignition source or by the temperature of the gas cloud itself. The result would be a rapid expansion of the gas into a fire ball as described.

Also the spontaneous ignition temperatures of gases produced by plastics can be relatively low compared to the temperatures normally encountered in a fire.
The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to those who think they've found it.