from the RRO debate - cos im also a sad anorak (who actually sat through it all)
Mr. Hammond; I would like the Minister to clarify firefighters' status as relevant persons. The hon. Member for Burnley gave an explanation in response to an intervention which, I have to say, was diametrically different from my understanding that firefighters are generally excluded from being relevant persons. The Committee's concern was that in certain circumstances, where firefighters are not fighting fires, they ought to have the same protection as any other relevant person in the building. However, the Committee accepted that the responsible person could not have the same duties to firefighters who were actively tackling a fire as to people who were in the building for other purposes. Could the Minister clarify that point?
Phil Hope : The hon. Gentleman is absolutely right; the draft order was defective, in that firefighters were excluded whatever they were doing. The revised order has ensured that a firefighter will be protected as a relevant person, except when there to fight the fire. The draft order will be amended to remove that anomaly, and a firefighter will be treated as a relevant person when not engaged in emergency duties. They might be engaged in giving information, or something of that kind. I hope that helps the hon. Gentleman.
Mr. Hammond : I am very grateful to the Minister. That does clarify the point and I thank him for it.
Ms Drown : Does the hon. Gentleman share my concern that this sends out a message that not everything could be done? Fleur Lombard was a firefighter who died in the Avon area, in a large single-storey premises. It was as a result of that fire that regulations were introduced to ensure that there were sprinklers in large retail premises. That will save firefighters' lives. They are worthy of us doing everything that we can to save them, as well as other people, including when they are fighting fires. Does he agree that we should do everything possible to protect their lives too?
Mr. Hammond : Of course, the hon. Lady is right. We should do everything that we can to protect firefighters' lives. The obligations of fire authorities under health and safety legislation are clearly directed at doing just that. It may be that such obligations would dictate that firefighters did not go into a building to try to extinguish a fire where lives were not at risk but property was, precisely because the building was not deemed safe to enter. However, it would be impossibly onerous to impose on occupiers of buildings a duty to ensure the safety of a person who had deliberately gone into a burning building to try to extinguish a fire. The regulation as the Minister has explained it is right. This outbreak of consensus is very disconcerting, and I cannot quite get used to it, but I am sure that we will find something to disagree on later.
dave bev
