Action after fire alarm

[Davidrh]

I know what you are all goint to say but this is a serious question for me (I'm the one with the 40 bedroom hotel)

As some will know I am having a little local difficulty with my local brigade who want me to fit smoke seals to my Bedroom fire doors.

I have HD's in the bedrooms which the brigade have said is acceptable under BS whatever.

I have todate resisted the temptation to change to SD's simple because of the problems of false alarms.

All Hotelier will tell you about punters deliberately setting off alarms as it is

Having said all above I am starting to think that I would be better to ask the brigage if they will accept SD's in the bedrooms rather than smoke seals (No I am not going to do both)

BUT...and here is the kicker...What policy should I come up with to deal with alarms

The SD's will create more alarms (even though we are a NON Smoking hotel)

My existing policy is Alarm/Call Fire brigade etc etc (we are not automatically connected to the brigade)

False alarms are bad enough with HD's and will for sure increase with SD's

So many false alarms....its why people don't react any more (cry wolf to often)

and what do we do about the sirens. Turn them off or always wait for the brigade

[Chris Houston]

I am sure others have more experience of this than me, but perhaps 3 minutes delay between smoke detector activation and alarm activation and in that time you can send a runner to check the room?   2 detectors or a manual call point or a corridor detector activation result in immediate full evacuation.

I'd also recommend signs say that this is a sensitive smoke detector and that smoking, candles, joss sticks, shower steam will actiate it.

[CivvyFSO]

The "2nd knock" 2 detector approach may not work in this instance as the second detector would generally be in the corridor anyway. We generally don't like long delays in sleeping risks so you may have some resistance from your FRS regarding an investigation period.

I stayed in a hotel years ago where the steam activated the detector which activated the alarm in my room. Reception phoned immediately to see what the problem was. I confirmed that there was no fire, that process took about 30 seconds from activation of the detector to confirming there was no fire.

Also, don't fall into the trap of saving a bit of money on cable by having the detector sited close to the door to the room, right next to the bathroom. The installers may also try to do this unless they are instructed not to.

[Graeme]

Replace your heat detectors for Multisensors

[David Rooney]

The "2nd knock" 2 detector approach may not work in this instance as the second detector would generally be in the corridor anyway. We generally don't like long delays in sleeping risks so you may have some resistance from your FRS regarding an investigation period.

Slightly aside, but seriously, if the risk assessment is made by the RP and they believe even a 6 minute search period is warranted and acceptable (and in accordance with 5839) then under what duristiction can the FRS object, and apart from issue enforcement notices what can they actually do??

Re the question, if you have the management structure in place to be able to cope with a staff alarm of sorts then the sounder delay may be the better option. The search can be speeded up (if you have the staff) if the fire alarm is addressable, and possibly if you have a paging system that would relay the origin of the fire alarm condition to trained personnel to save them all coming back to the panel before rushing off again.

You need to plan your alarm and evacuation strategy around the resources you have available, not the other way round.

[Chris Houston]

The RR(FS)O requires numerous things.  1 of them is an assessment of risk, another is a suitable type of alarm system.  So surly they would just take action based on the alarm system not being suitable?

[Clevelandfire]

Yes Chris quite correct. We will challenge anything we feel cant or wont work. We are happy to be proved wrong and so if it can demonstrated it will work then end of argument.The proposal Wayne Rooney mentions seems reasonable to me and I doubt I'd take any issue with it.

[Ricardo]

The SD's will create more alarms (even though we are a NON Smoking hotel)
False alarms are bad enough with HD's and will for sure increase with SD's

David can I ask you why you believe, or what evidence you have that SD's will create more alarms in your hotel bedrooms, and why is it that false alarms are so bad with your existing HD's?
maybe worth considering Graemes solution.

[Izan FSO]

Davidrh

Im guessing that your fire alarm is quite old (HD in bedrooms used to be used years ago when smoking in bedrooms was agiven for all rooms) if you are having such a problem with false alarms from HDs that suggests to me that your whole system may deteriorating and needs to be replaced and upgraded to a better system that will reduce false alarms. (article 10 Principles of Prevention - adapting to technical progress) continued waste of fire service resouces by not managing false alarms could result in enforcement under this article...possibly

[Galeon]

Most of these unwanted alarms from a smoke is where the bathroom extract is no good. People jump straight out the shower and low and behold steam goes straight off into the room and hits the detector, or deodorant / hairspray has also been known to cause problems. You might be better to evaluate thee layout of the room and the environment , and maybe make some changes. Pick one room and test it out if the above rings true , that's your benchmark.

[Graeme]

Ian

i think he is relectant to change from HD to SD as he has heard of sd's being more prone to false alarms in Hotels,not that his existing HD's are the problem.

a 40 room hotel is more likely to be addressable but either way not difficult to swap out the hd's

[Izan FSO]

Ian

i think he is relectant to change from HD to SD as he has heard of sd's being more prone to false alarms in Hotels,not that his existing HD's are the problem.

a 40 room hotel is more likely to be addressable but either way not difficult to swap out the hd's

You could be right Graeme (i assume Ian is me with the Z missing..i have those Jonny sausage fingers moments)

when I read "False alarms are bad enough with HD's and will for sure increase with SD's" i assumed he was having a problem with false alarms from h the HDs

[Paul2886]

Saw a natty system up in Blackburn. The common areas were covered by an addressable system and each room by another system of stand-alone mains operated smoke detectors. If one the room detectors is activated it sounds within the room and contacts a hand held type phone carried by staff. The phone then gives out a voice message of which room it is. From this they can contact the room or, if no reply, pay a visit

[AnthonyB]

Since the smoking legislation several hotels I have either stayed in or visited now charge £40 for any evidence of smoking or false alarm from a similar cause, enforceable by the fact that most people have used their credit card and that by entering into a contract to pay for accommodation that they accept these charges.

New builds or refurbs in the big chains are increasingly using multisensors, but a few places are still going for heats in bedrooms - just visited one today which has just been refurbed & a lot of fire alarm works included where all the bedrooms are heats except for the two bedrooms which formed part of a staircase bypass route.

[Davidrh]

Hi all

Thanks for the feed back
The HD's work fine accept for the occasional single room failure which sets off an alarm
add to this the deliberate (guests) alarms and it can amount to half a dozen or so a year.
Yes Izan. Spot on. Everyone in the hotel business is concerned about SD false alarms
and Galeon it might be Ok to test one of the rooms out...but you know what its like...nothing ontoward will happen in that room..period
My rooms are a decent size and in good condition with the HD's sited at the bottom of the beds away from the bathroom.
In my oinion everthing works fine
But..the FO wants smoke seals and basically I don't (I have heard all the aurguments back and forth to and fro and yes If I have to I will put them in
BUT I have been kept awake at night thinking about this.... If, for whatever reason, we have "cold" smoke in a bedroom with a guest sleeping. I already have 30 minute fire doors. I am now required to fit smoke seals which I think will kill my sleeping guest before the HD goes off.
No smoke seals and the smoke leaks out into the corridor and the SD's in the hallway set the alarm off.
I Know I know..you don't want smoke in hallways...but is that the holy grail
I just can't get it out of my head that smoke seals in otherwise servicable 30 minute fire bedroom doors are a fashion that will kill one day
What we want is a fire alarm that goes off when there is a fire.. yes..No !!??
So back to the HD/SD thing
I am getting so exasperated (wrong word..frustrated)  by the experience of dealing with this !!!!!!!!!!