Action after fire alarm

[jokar]

I go with Graeme, change the HD to a multisensor, cover both risks and forget the strips and seals.  The S&S in these situations, particularly on bedroom doors are for property protection and not life protection if, you have a decent fire alarm system.

AS a point, has anyone had a S&S retofitted door tested to the BS?   It could fail you know.

[John Webb]

I was involved with work at the Fire Research Station in the late 1970s, I think for the then Home Office, which dealt with the effect of spacing SDs in corridors. I cannot find my papers on this, so I'm not too certain whether the Home Office published anything or if it went into BSI on behalf of the HO.
Well-fitting doors or those with smoke seals let little smoke into the corridor. What was let through was cool and tended to form a plug of smoke in the corridor which might not be near a detector and which could be thick enough to deter people from escaping through it once the alarm was raised.
Reasonably fitting doors (no smoke seals) would let some warm smoke through and this was usually detected well before the corridor was impassable.
Badly fitting doors (no smoke seals) let much smoke through. Corridor SDs responded quickly, but sometimes smoke built up too quickly in the corridor to allow adequate time for escape.

In the above circumstances I cannot see why the Fire Service is calling for smoke seals if the doors are reasonably well-fitted. If the doors are a poor fit - say larger than 3mm gap round most of the door - that may be the reason they are asking.

[Izan FSO]

If, for whatever reason, we have "cold" smoke in a bedroom with a guest sleeping. I already have 30 minute fire doors. I am now required to fit smoke seals which I think will kill my sleeping guest before the HD goes off.

Davidhr the smoke seals wont kill your guests the smoke will because the HD will only detect a devloped fire and the by the time the HD has operated the guest will be suffering severe smoke inhalation and possibly be already dead.

Go for SD in the bedrooms and get an early warning of a fire (if it is a well fitted and well maintained system false alarms should not be a problem) and everyone will be out of the building before the pressure from the fire in the room of origin has pushed smoke into the corridor.

After that you could agree an upgrade of the doors to fit seals as and when you redecorate a room over a period of time. dont dig your heels in look for a compromise.

[Graeme]

The HD's work fine accept for the occasional single room failure which sets off an alarm
!!!!!!

can't think why you would get a false alarm from a heat detector in a room,fixed temp or rate rise unless a customer has held a lighter up to it?

any signs of black marks on the detector?

failing that a faulty device but i have never had a faulty hd cause an alarm.

edit-bad spelling   terable gramur

[Davidrh]

Hi Izan

I think you have confirmed my fears
The Fire Brigade want me to fit smoke seals to bedrooms with HD's
I don't
Because (as I have written) and as you say too "Davidhr the smoke seals wont kill your guests the smoke will because the HD will only detect a devloped fire and the by the time the HD has operated the guest will be suffering severe smoke inhalation and possibly be already dead.

Do you see my point and my concern

The FB want me to do this.

I repeat the Fire brigade want me to do this !!!!!!!!!!

Fit smoke seals to doors which have HD's fitted (they are not asking me to change the HD's to SD's

This is my whole aurgument.

[CivvyFSO]

I think the reason behind the FRS asking for smoke seals is because BS5839 quite specifically allows HD in rooms, and as such could pretty much sacrifice the person in that room. If this is the case then the FRS are possible wanting to make the best out of a bad job and ensure the safety of everyone else in the hotel via strips and seals to look after the escape route for the other relevant persons.

As someone else pointed out, if we asked for an upgarde to SD you could stand in court with a copy of the CLG guide and also BS5839, as the most current document, revised in 2002 and again in 2008, and ask the question as to why we want more than this accepted standard. The strips and seals would be more enforceable, as technically not having smoke seals does not comply with current standards.

[Allen Higginson]

Unfortunately David the heat detector is for the purpose of detecting fire in the room prior to it escalating into the corridor (yes,at the expense of the resident in the room) and the smoke seals are to stop the nasty toxic stuff (which has already most likely killed your guest) escaping into the escape route for everyone else.Generally though,the detector will be fitted at the door itself as this is the boundry into the corridor.
It's a bit like the insistance of sprinklers in hotel rooms in the states - of no use to the occupant of the room.
A nice anecdote to the sprinkler situation is a conversation between a smoke detecor guy and a sprinkler guy,each arguing for their product.The detector guy throws down a challenge."Right,the two of us will go into a room,close the door and mount our respective devices on the ceiling.I will then start a fire down the back of,say,a soft chair or similar item.Neither of us will be permitted to leave the room until our own device has activated"!

[Davidrh]

Hello Buzzard
I'm confused again.
Most, if not all en-suite bedrooms have bathroom doors next to the exit door.
SD's will be going off all night (or morning0 sited in the position you suggest.
I can see your point Civvy and think you are right in all you say
I am moving closer & closer to SD' s (in the middle of the room)

[John Dragon]

Hello Buzzard
I'm confused again.
Most, if not all en-suite bedrooms have bathroom doors next to the exit door.
SD's will be going off all night (or morning0 sited in the position you suggest.
I can see your point Civvy and think you are right in all you say
I am moving closer & closer to SD' s (in the middle of the room)

When we install new alarms in hotels, one of the biggest causes of false alarms is steam from bathrooms that have inadequate extractor fans.
If possible, a deep "header" over the bathroom door to create a "reservoir" for the steam and a good extractor fan will minimise or eradicate false alarms from steam.
Further measures may include fitting ionisation smokes in place of opticals or fitting multisensors if you have an addressable system.
Most addressable systems have adjustable threshold smoke detectors so the sensitivity can be altered.

Query -
Never seen it done but why  do hotels not install heat detectors in bedrooms but with a mains smoke alarm to alert the (sleeping) occupants? This is common practice in HMOs etc.

[Wiz]

Query -
Never seen it done but why  do hotels not install heat detectors in bedrooms but with a mains smoke alarm to alert the (sleeping) occupants? This is common practice in HMOs etc.

Further Query in line with John Dragon's query -
Why don't hotels install a heat detector (that causes an immediate full evacuation alarm when operated) and a smoke detector (that causes a local alarm in that room and for the reception/security/maintenance staff only, with possibly a timed delay for full evacuation alarm) in each bedroom?

This provides the same level as John Dragon's proposal plus alerts the staff plus keeps all detectors on one system plus ensures any tampering with the smoke detector is indicated to hotel staff immediately. (as opposed to J.D's proposal)

[Allen Higginson]

Hello Buzzard
I'm confused again.
Most, if not all en-suite bedrooms have bathroom doors next to the exit door.
SD's will be going off all night (or morning0 sited in the position you suggest.
I can see your point Civvy and think you are right in all you say
I am moving closer & closer to SD' s (in the middle of the room)

Hi David,I was referring to heat detectors in that case.

[kurnal]

All the above are good suggestions, and which is best depends where you are starting from.

If you have a hotel with an old conventional alarm system with heat detectors in rooms and are being heavily persuaded by the enforcers to upgrade to smokes in rooms, and like David ( and people like Colin Todd for that matter) you can see potential pitfalls in simply switching heads due to their being sited and cabled in accordance with being just a heat detector.

Analysis of the problem will lead you the simplest solution- ie protection of the occupant by provision of a nice cheap independent domestic smoke alarm. And why not? it hits all the buttons. It wakes the occupant of the room at the earliest opportunity, it does not disturb others with unwanted signals and can be selected and sited accordingly. The others using the building will still have adequate protection from the heat detector. It is a cost effective solution and it means that the old main system does not have to be scrapped prematurely.

If you are installing a new system then go for analogue addressible system with smoke detection in all rooms and a double knock or delay during which the alarm can be verified. Or multi sensors. But many of the older and still perfectly serviceable systems wont take them.
I do sometimes wonder why some of the contributors to this forum are so hostile about building owners wanting to balance safety and costs. It really isnt easy to fill a hotel with guests consistently and to make a  good living. You need to look at occupancy levels and market forces- the big coach holiday groups hold the power and will only pay break even rates and many hoteliers have to make a choice between that and an empty hotel mid week. Yes you can look at the value of the property- but then try to sell it for that price!

[Davidrh]

Hi again

Do you mean stand alone systems Kurnal.

ie lets say a 10 year battery type NOT connected to a central system

[kurnal]

Well You could argue for a 10 year battery operated model but i would feel more secure with a standalone, mains powered smoke alarm in each room with battery backup. I see no particular  need to link to other detectors to meet the purpose..

There is nothing wrong with a battery only detector with regular tests- EXCEPT THAT  in a workplace environment best practice would be to go with the H&S Safety Signs and Signals Regulations, the ACOP for which specifies that any safety signal that relies on a power supply should have a back up supply in case of failure of the primary supply.  To power the mains operated detector you would need to pick up an unswitched live feed from a nearby lighting circuit in common use. Beware many hotels now have a card operated mains system linked to the access control and door entry  that kills all power to a room- we need to be sure the supply is unswitched and available 24/7.

(I am keenly waiting for the manufacturers to come up with radio linked domestic type smoke alarms with dual battery operation  and then we would have the ideal solution for the smaller B&B.......................... Piglet where are you and can you help??? )

[Allen Higginson]

Ei do mains/battery radio smokes - http://www.eielectronics.com/p3.php?PHPSESSID=10063cd7a769ba89fb8c6ce02f6f6506 .

I'm assuming that Aico do the same thing http://www.aico.co.uk/smoke_radio.htm .