Fire extinguisher signage

[Paul2886]

Hopefully a simple question:
Were does it quote that it is mandatory (the law) to affix signage adjacent to fire extinguishers. If of course it is. Thanks

[nearlythere]

Nowhere. What sort of signage in what sort of situation are you asking about.

[Ricardo]

The Health & Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regs dont specify where and when a sign must be provided, however they do impose an overriding requirement  that signs must be provided wherever a risk cannot be eliminated by other means.
Therefore the provision of any fire extinguisher sign should be based on your FRA.

It seems to be a common misconception that all fire extinguishers need to be indicated by signs. This is not the case at all. There will normally be no need for a sign if the equipment is obvious, but signs are relevant if the equipment is hidden from view.

[AnthonyB]

To quote the RRO guides - "Signs should indicate non-automatic fire safety equipment if there is any doubt about its
location, e.g. fire extinguishers that are kept in cabinets or in recesses."

The signage sales people can quote the statute itself as a reason to sign extinguishers as the way paragraph 13 is worded implies that although portable fire equipment is only required 'where necessary' it goes on to say  "(b) any non-automatic fire-fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs."

So in summary:

The actual Order says- YES, sign all extinguishers
The official guides to the Order say- NO, only sign extinguishers not readily visible

As the guides are used by the enforcers I'd go with those.

My personal approach is - you must sign any extinguisher hidden in a recess or cabinet, or that has a polished aluminium or stainless steel finish, or that may be difficult to initially find in a large open area such as a warehouse. you may want to sign the others as an aid to correct identification & selection using the 'ID' type signs, but only if you so desire.

[jokar]

AB,

Now that is great advice

[messy]

The RR(FS)O actually states: (my CAPITALS)

Fire-fighting and fire detection
     13. —(1) WHERE NECESSARY (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—

(a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and

(b) ANY NON-AUTOMATIC FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT SO PROVIDED IS  so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and INDICATED BY SIGNS.


So it's the good 'where necessary' again, which many people (esp sign salesmen) seem to miss. My take is where extinguishers are hidden (in boxes, behind curtains etc) or other areas where they are not  readily obvious.

[Clevelandfire]

To quote the RRO guides - "Signs should indicate non-automatic fire safety equipment if there is any doubt about its
location, e.g. fire extinguishers that are kept in cabinets or in recesses."

The signage sales people can quote the statute itself as a reason to sign extinguishers as the way paragraph 13 is worded implies that although portable fire equipment is only required 'where necessary' it goes on to say  "(b) any non-automatic fire-fighting equipment so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and indicated by signs."

So in summary:

The actual Order says- YES, sign all extinguishers
The official guides to the Order say- NO, only sign extinguishers not readily visible

As the guides are used by the enforcers I'd go with those.

My personal approach is - you must sign any extinguisher hidden in a recess or cabinet, or that has a polished aluminium or stainless steel finish, or that may be difficult to initially find in a large open area such as a warehouse. you may want to sign the others as an aid to correct identification & selection using the 'ID' type signs, but only if you so desire.

AB for me thats an excellent summary of a common sense approach to be had with extinguisher signage.Thank you.

[nearlythere]

The RR(FS)O actually states: (my CAPITALS)

Fire-fighting and fire detection
     13. —(1) WHERE NECESSARY (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—

(a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and

(b) ANY NON-AUTOMATIC FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT SO PROVIDED IS  so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and INDICATED BY SIGNS.


So it's the good 'where necessary' again, which many people (esp sign salesmen) seem to miss. My take is where extinguishers are hidden (in boxes, behind curtains etc) or other areas where they are not  readily obvious.

That is how I see it. I would have thought that the extinguisher itself is suitable signage unless, as you say, it is hidden or concealed when additional signage would be appriopriate to indicate the presence of an extinguisher. Makes sense

[John Dragon]

We provide a free of charge rigid plastic, photoluminescent sign with each extinguisher installed. Having signage looks more professional, gives the user a bit of easily read info (e.g. do not use on live elecs) and is cheap!
If customers want signs fitting adj to existing extinguishers we charge £3.00 each, very few decline but are free to do so. (some companies charge a lot more than this).  If you go for signs, be aware of what you are getting, there is cheap rubbish available and you can easily get ripped off.

[CivvyFSO]

That is how I see it. I would have thought that the extinguisher itself is suitable signage unless, as you say, it is hidden or concealed when additional signage would be appriopriate to indicate the presence of an extinguisher. Makes sense

Ditto.

I have seen quotes from companies running over £1000 for such signage. Every extinguisher, every call point, fire action notice by every call point, big sign about areas where call points and extinguishers were saying "Fire point".

"It is a big red thing on the wall, you can see it from miles away!"

[nearlythere]

That is how I see it. I would have thought that the extinguisher itself is suitable signage unless, as you say, it is hidden or concealed when additional signage would be appriopriate to indicate the presence of an extinguisher. Makes sense

Ditto.

I have seen quotes from companies running over £1000 for such signage. Every extinguisher, every call point, fire action notice by every call point, big sign about areas where call points and extinguishers were saying "Fire point".

"It is a big red thing on the wall, you can see it from miles away!"

"I'm a fire extinguisher, is it me you're looking for" Sounds like a song - Lionel Richie?

[AnthonyB]

The RR(FS)O actually states: (my CAPITALS)

Fire-fighting and fire detection
     13. —(1) WHERE NECESSARY (whether due to the features of the premises, the activity carried on there, any hazard present or any other relevant circumstances) in order to safeguard the safety of relevant persons, the responsible person must ensure that—

(a) the premises are, to the extent that it is appropriate, equipped with appropriate fire-fighting equipment and with fire detectors and alarms; and

(b) ANY NON-AUTOMATIC FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT SO PROVIDED IS  so provided is easily accessible, simple to use and INDICATED BY SIGNS.


So it's the good 'where necessary' again, which many people (esp sign salesmen) seem to miss. My take is where extinguishers are hidden (in boxes, behind curtains etc) or other areas where they are not  readily obvious.

That's where you are wrong it's all about the grammar and construction of the section. It is written so that:

1) fire fighting equipment is required where necessary, HOWEVER
b) ANY non automatic fire fighting equipment so provided is....indicated by signs

If where necessary applied to sub section (b) then you could have very complicated fire equipment that was difficult to access and unsigned if you thought that was OK.

Section 1 is optional, but subsection b is absolute & this is what the sign people jump on.

Fortunately the RRO guides are more realistic and in effect ignore sub section b with regards to signage in all cases

[Davo]

Sorry Anthony, you can't have your cake and eat it.

Its says where necessary several times in the text ie RISK ASSESS RISK ASSESS RISK ASSESS

The RA lives with it as they do with all the other stuff

Spot on Messy!


davo

[CivvyFSO]

I would disagree with your interpretation of the grammar.

"Where necessary" preceeds everything, so "where necessary" you should ensure that both conditions A and B are met.

If it was listed as

(2) Any non-automatic firefighting........ Then I would agree.

[The Reiver]

To all the previous posters on this thread, explain this little gem for me then:

Put aside (if you can) the RRO and guides for a mo.

The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996
Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 341
PAGE 4
SCHEDULE 1
PART 1
(MINIMUM REQUIREMENTS REQUIRING SAFETY SIGNS AND SIGNALS AT WORK)
2. TYPES OF SIGN
2.1 PERMANENT SIGNS
2.1.1 .........Signboards and /or a safety colour must be used to permanently mark the location and identification of fire - fighting equipment.

Oh and by the way, the shell colour of an extinguisher is not classed as its' "location marking colour" as there is plenty of pre EN3 coloured kit still out there and the legal colour is RED.

So if you risk assess and say you don't need the fire equipment marking with a sign board or identification colour, (even if said equipment is in clear line of sight) you are in direct contravention of a government statute (but possibly not common sense).
But then again how many laws follow common sense ?

Therefore Paulm2886, it does say it. It is mandatory. And it is the law.

But which law prevails, because The Health and Safety (Safety Signs and Signals) Regulations 1996 has never been superceded ?? and this part leeches over into the RRO with conflicting messages.

Don't shoot the messenger.