Office based in a wing of a historic house

[Clevelandfire 3]

I disagree. Wording of the order states "Undertaking". Define an undertaking sonny Jim. If it isnt an undertaking the RRO cant apply. Besides the building might be in the middle of nowhere within a secured compound and therefore wouldnt affect any nearby relevant persons.

[AnthonyB]

We've done empty premises FRAs before - although not tenanted the agent has staff do regular internal inspections (relevant persons) and they are often located where they could have an effect on adjacent premises.

Cheap & quick to do they focus a lot on security & arson and associated aspects

[PhilB]

I disagree. Wording of the order states "Undertaking". Define an undertaking sonny Jim. If it isnt an undertaking the RRO cant apply. Besides the building might be in the middle of nowhere within a secured compound and therefore wouldnt affect any nearby relevant persons.

Once again you're confused Cleaveland...never mind..you really should attend a decent training course. Don't let that Toddddy blokey try to sell you one.... Let me try to help you.


Undertaking is mentioned in article 3 when defining who the responsible person is in various types of premises.

....."Meaning of “responsible person”
3. In this Order “responsible person” means—
(a) in relation to a workplace, the employer, if the workplace is to any extent under his
control;
(b) in relation to any premises not falling within paragraph (a)—
(i) the person who has control of the premises (as occupier or otherwise) in connection
with the carrying on by him of a trade, business or other undertaking (for profit or
not); or
(ii) the owner, where the person in control of the premises does not have control in
connection with the carrying on by that person of a trade, business or other
undertaking.

Please read 3(b)(ii) carefully, it cleary contradicts what you are saying....if there is no trade or business or other undertaking the owner is the RP....and the order does apply.



Now to find out which premises the order applies to you need to read article 6 (are you staying awake Cleveland???)

Article 6 lists the premises that the Order does not apply to. You will note that it does not mention empty premises in that list. Now read very carefully the last sentence in article 6         

"(2) Subject to the preceding paragraph of this article, this Order applies in relation to any premises."


Note the words "any premises" Cleveland...that includes empty premises.

...and if you look at the definition of 'premises' you will see that it includes any place and makes no mention of undertakings.


Do we understand now Sunny Jim?

[Chris Houston]

I've surveys lots of empty buildings where there was no risk assessment.  Often the bloke showing me around has advised no one works here.  Their argument falls apart when they realise that both him and I are working there as he tells me this.

[Clevelandfire 3]

Nah diagree. A clever barrister would soon argue that a guy showing you areound an empty building doesn't constiute a permanent workplace and as such doesn't warrant any precautions.

Phillllllll an eloquent argument well put, but I dont think that would stand up in a court of law personally. Its all down to interpretation. And by your argument even an empty building on a desert island would be subject to the RRO

[PhilB]

Nah diagree. A clever barrister would soon argue that a guy showing you areound an empty building doesn't constiute a permanent workplace and as such doesn't warrant any precautions.

Phillllllll an eloquent argument well put, but I dont think that would stand up in a court of law personally. Its all down to interpretation. And by your argument even an empty building on a desert island would be subject to the RRO

Well Cleveland I'm afraid we must agree to differ. But it is not as you say "down to interpretation" it is a matter of fact where the order does and does not apply to. The statute is quite clear and sets this out in article 6. Please explain to me where it states that the order does not apply to empty buildings.


Have you attended a training course on the order or are you self taught by any chance?

[kurnal]

Cleveland
The RRO only applies to England and Wales. If you can show me a desert island in E&W then I will show my posterior in Tescos.

The order does apply to an empty building (subject to article 6)  in a remote setting in  England and Wales but  of course as there are no relevant persons at risk of fire the "prescribed information" would not need to be recorded and the General Fire Precautions would be very modest indeed as these are only provided to safeguard relevant persons.

[Midland Retty]

Clevelandfire

I think you have misunderstood my original statement (or perhaps I didn't explain myself very well). I wasnt stating that the RRO didn't apply to empty buildings, I merely asked what an "undertaking" was. I know what an undertaking is, but in legal terms what does it mean. Whats the 'official' definition of an "undertaking".

Prof K

I hear you expose your posterior regularly in Tescos, especially whilst bending down to pick up a tin of baked beans from the bottom shelf

[Clevelandfire 3]

Dunno Retty. Undertakings are done by undertakers surely?